Globe expose on Sox collapse in SoxProspects Discussion Forum

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Globe expose on Sox collapse

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Arquimedez Bozo	Globe expose on Sox collapse		Lead	[-]
Posts: 12342 10/12/11 9:35 AM Chris Hatfield Executive Editor SoxProspects.com	Tags : None This definitely deserves its own thread. http://www.boston.com/spo...ic_late_season_collapse/ Yikes. "I think the baby is sleeping right now." - Jonathan Singer Twitter: @ChrisHatfield/@SoxProspects / SoxProspects on Facebook
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jsinger121		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17556 10/12/11 9:51 AM Jonathan Singer Digital Correspondent SoxProspects.com	Didn't care for Francona's personal problems which was a low blow and thought everything was probably spot on of what happened. Twitter: @Jonathan_Singer/@Soxprospects
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adiospaydro2005		#2	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2285 10/12/11 9:51 AM Veteran Member	Red Sox management should be worried about fans bringing their own bricks with them in 2012 and taking out their frustration with the lack of commitment of the team. This shit may take years for the Red Sox brand to recover. Not exactly a good way set the stage to celebrate the 100th anniversary of Fenway Park. Spooky World at Fenway may last beyond October 2011. Poorest spending of $3 million that I have ever seen.-fcastig 0220
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jsinger121		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17557 10/12/11 9:53 AM Jonathan Singer Digital Correspondent SoxProspects.com	My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. Twitter: @Jonathan_Singer/@Soxprospects
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remember04		#4	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 496 10/12/11 9:58 AM	jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. Sounds great, any ideas how?
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gregblossersbelly		#5	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1309 10/12/11 10:03 AM Veteran Member	jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. Pretty much nailed it. Could we send the prospects back to the Cubs we get for Theo and Youkilis for Garza? Cubs could probably use a guy with Youk's intensity on the field. That gives you a replacement for Beckett. We ought be be able to get a decent bat for him. Beckett for Hanley? LOL.....We'll give em Iglesias too. Just release Lackey. You can't be worse than the worse pitcher in the history of the Boston Red Sox. He sounds eminently replaceable.
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Guidas		#6	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2183 10/12/11 10:06 AM	jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. So you would rather trade Beckett and Youkilis undercutting your leverage in any deals involving them instead of confronting them, asking each to take accountability and see how they respond? Really?
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jsinger121		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17558 10/12/11 10:08 AM Jonathan Singer Digital Correspondent SoxProspects.com	Guidas wrote: jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. So you would rather trade Beckett and Youkilis undercutting your leverage in any deals involving them instead of confronting them, asking each to take accountability and see how they respond? Really? Yup. Beckett has showed zero accountability and would you expect a guy like him to do so with the money he got by this team? Trade him now while he still has value and he does indeed have value to other teams. He is definitely the ring leader of this mess along with Lackey. Guys like that cannot be allowed to return. Twitter: @Jonathan_Singer/@Soxprospects
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BriantheTaoist		#8	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2528 10/12/11 10:09 AM	I'd say Lackey and Wakefield are surely gone, Varitek too (and he's probably #1 on my list for who should go), Youkilis is a likely trade (with a sit-down with Ellsbury telling him the team is deeply, deeply sorry they let Youkilis trash him in public, and can you please consider staying here when your contract is up?) ... Ortiz and Beckett are interesting cases because their on-field performance was good, and I don't know enough about the off-field b.s. to really know. I think Ortiz's public stuff is overblown. And I just feel sad for Francona. It was obviously a terrible year for him all around, and now he's gotta get it all aired out in public. Managing in Boston sucks in a lot of ways. As an aside, I can't believe I missed Wakefield's "the fans deserve to see me chase the record" comment. For a whole host of reasons, that might be the most obnoxious statement from a Sox player in my memory.
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amfox1		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8809 10/12/11 10:13 AM Senior Forum Moderator	The article, which looks like a hatchet job specifically timed with pushing Theo out the door and providing cover to ownership/management by assigning blame on Tito for the clubhouse and on Theo for the Crawford signing, will be a distant memory by spring training. A new manager will not allow these shananigans to take place and a significant factor in the hiring of a new manager will likely be player relations and discipline. As to Jon's point, I think forcing players out, solely for the sake of change, is an overreaction. The new manager will clean up a number of the problems. I thought the comments about Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis in the article were trivial. I did not believe Varitek or Wakefield would return, even before the collapse, and I could see Ortiz bolting to another team although IMO his legacy and future earning potential reside in Boston. I don't see Beckett or Crawford being traded, although I could see more offseason oversight on weight management for the entire pitching staff. I could also see them trying to trade Lackey back to the West Coast (San Diego would be my guess), if Cherington & Co. conclude that Lackey is a culture-killer, but I assume the hope is that his personal problems and lack of shape were the main culprits and will be corrected before spring training.
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gregblossersbelly		#10	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1310 10/12/11 10:14 AM Veteran Member	Guidas wrote: jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. So you would rather trade Beckett and Youkilis undercutting your leverage in any deals involving them instead of confronting them, asking each to take accountability and see how they respond? Really? If the body has cancer. You have to cut it out. Even if lose a limb...or an arm.....If not, the consequences are that you will die.
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Steve of Charlotte		#11	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 473 10/12/11 10:23 AM	It is so hard not to feel betrayed. There are so many people who "live and die" with the Sox. It is something that binds much of New England together. How can any player look themselves in the mirror when it has hurt millions of people's devotion and costs hundreds of people their jobs. By the time next season rolls around, the front office, the trainers, the coaches, the scouts, and others will be in very precarious positions as to whether they are "next". How callous of a few players to think only of themselves. Lackey cannot come back. Whether it is fair, he was the new guy. I'm not dismissing Beckett or Lester, but something changed in their work habits over the last couple of years (and Lackey was here then). I'm mostly disappointed with Lester. This organization has done a lot for him, and Tito REALLY cared about him. Maybe this will actually do the organization some good. Maybe it will wake folks up to who we bring in and what kind of responsibility is too much.
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Guidas		#12	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2185 10/12/11 10:28 AM	gregblossersbelly wrote: Guidas wrote: jsinger121 wrote: My take is they cannot allow these players to return to the organization in 2012. John Lackey Josh Beckett Jason Varitek Tim Wakefield Kevin Youkilis David Ortiz They need to build around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon (if he resigns), Bard and Aceves. Salvage Crawford is a must as well. So you would rather trade Beckett and Youkilis undercutting your leverage in any deals involving them instead of confronting them, asking each to take accountability and see how they respond? Really? If the body has cancer. You have to cut it out. Even if lose a limb...or an arm.....If not, the consequences are that you will die. Um, you can't reason with cancer. Human beings, sometimes. There's a possibility for a leadership moment here. Not saying Beckett or Youkilis will rise to the challenge, but if you look at the biographies of many leaders, they didn't start out as leaders - in fact many were part of the problem or ambivalent - until they were challenged to accept responsibility and the mantle of leadership. Last Edited By: Guidas 10/12/11 10:37 AM. Edited 1 time.
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Mhueg		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 802 10/12/11 10:32 AM Matt Huegel Senior Editor SoxProspects.com	amfox1 wrote: As to Jon's point, I think forcing players out, solely for the sake of change, is an overreaction. The new manager will clean up a number of the problems. I thought the comments about Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis in the article were trivial. I did not believe Varitek or Wakefield would return, even before the collapse, and I could see Ortiz bolting to another team although IMO his legacy and future earning potential reside in Boston. I don't see Beckett or Crawford being traded, although I could see more offseason oversight on weight management for the entire pitching staff. I could also see them trying to trade Lackey back to the West Coast (San Diego would be my guess), if Cherington & Co. conclude that Lackey is a culture-killer, but I assume the hope is that his personal problems and lack of shape were the main culprits and will be corrected before spring training. I agree with almost all of what you said here. But especially the part in bold stuck out to me also when reading the story. The only things said about those players was re-tread stuff that has been gossiped about since the end of the season, and old quotes. The part about Gonzalez basically says, "he wasn't a good leader, as an example, here are some quotes from right after the worst loss of the season complaining about the schedule." Except the story doesn't make clear that that's when the quotes are from. And obviously that was somewhat petty by Gonzalez, but hardly the type of stuff that reveals a major character flaw, etc.
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Yirmiyahu		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3505 10/12/11 10:38 AM Forum Moderator	amfox1 wrote: The article, which looks like a hatchet job specifically timed with pushing Theo out the door and providing cover to ownership/management by assigning blame on Tito for the clubhouse and on Theo for the Crawford signing, will be a distant memory by spring training. A new manager will not allow these shananigans to take place and a significant factor in the hiring of a new manager will likely be player relations and discipline. As to Jon's point, I think forcing players out, solely for the sake of change, is an overreaction. The new manager will clean up a number of the problems. I thought the comments about Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis in the article were trivial. I did not believe Varitek or Wakefield would return, even before the collapse, and I could see Ortiz bolting to another team although IMO his legacy and future earning potential reside in Boston. I don't see Beckett or Crawford being traded, although I could see more offseason oversight on weight management for the entire pitching staff. I could also see them trying to trade Lackey back to the West Coast (San Diego would be my guess), if Cherington & Co. conclude that Lackey is a culture-killer, but I assume the hope is that his personal problems and lack of shape were the main culprits and will be corrected before spring training. Agree with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself. BTW, who the hell is Bob Hohler and how'd he get all these sources to talk to him when every other journalist has just reported bits and pieces of rumors?
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left coast bosox fan		#15	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 6541 10/12/11 10:39 AM Veteran Member	Soooooooooooooo, question. Why is Lester not on the discussion list if we are referring to the Globe article. The main paragraph on the pitcher game time partying and subsequent out of shape situations mentions three, Beckett, Lackey & Lester. Lester is no longer a positive role model to me. Lester, Beckett, Lackey, Roger. Same pile. "Watching Jose Iglesias take infield practice is like baseball porn" ,"Best defensive shortstop prospect I've ever seen." Keith Law
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left coast bosox fan		#16	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 6542 10/12/11 10:44 AM Veteran Member	I'm guessing Bob Hohler is somebody that can take what's about to come his way without affecting his career. The guys that are covering the Sox every day probably know it but don't want to get blackballed by players. I think it also started a little earlier. Oki's refusal to go to Boston is strange to say the least. "Watching Jose Iglesias take infield practice is like baseball porn" ,"Best defensive shortstop prospect I've ever seen." Keith Law Last Edited By: left coast bosox fan 10/12/11 10:46 AM. Edited 1 time.
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Guidas		#17	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2186 10/12/11 10:47 AM	Yirmiyahu wrote: amfox1 wrote: The article, which looks like a hatchet job specifically timed with pushing Theo out the door and providing cover to ownership/management by assigning blame on Tito for the clubhouse and on Theo for the Crawford signing, will be a distant memory by spring training. A new manager will not allow these shananigans to take place and a significant factor in the hiring of a new manager will likely be player relations and discipline. As to Jon's point, I think forcing players out, solely for the sake of change, is an overreaction. The new manager will clean up a number of the problems. I thought the comments about Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis in the article were trivial. I did not believe Varitek or Wakefield would return, even before the collapse, and I could see Ortiz bolting to another team although IMO his legacy and future earning potential reside in Boston. I don't see Beckett or Crawford being traded, although I could see more offseason oversight on weight management for the entire pitching staff. I could also see them trying to trade Lackey back to the West Coast (San Diego would be my guess), if Cherington & Co. conclude that Lackey is a culture-killer, but I assume the hope is that his personal problems and lack of shape were the main culprits and will be corrected before spring training. Agree with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself. BTW, who the hell is Bob Hohler and how'd he get all these sources to talk to him when every other journalist has just reported bits and pieces of rumors? Notice that virtually all of the sources are unnamed and opinions unsubstantiated. The National Enquirer would be proud. On second reading this seems like the usual anonymous character assassination employed by the Lucchino Administration when anyone popular heads out the door (Nomar, Pedro, Damon, et al).
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jsinger121		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 17559 10/12/11 10:49 AM Jonathan Singer Digital Correspondent SoxProspects.com	Yirmiyahu wrote: amfox1 wrote: The article, which looks like a hatchet job specifically timed with pushing Theo out the door and providing cover to ownership/management by assigning blame on Tito for the clubhouse and on Theo for the Crawford signing, will be a distant memory by spring training. A new manager will not allow these shananigans to take place and a significant factor in the hiring of a new manager will likely be player relations and discipline. As to Jon's point, I think forcing players out, solely for the sake of change, is an overreaction. The new manager will clean up a number of the problems. I thought the comments about Gonzalez, Ortiz and Youkilis in the article were trivial. I did not believe Varitek or Wakefield would return, even before the collapse, and I could see Ortiz bolting to another team although IMO his legacy and future earning potential reside in Boston. I don't see Beckett or Crawford being traded, although I could see more offseason oversight on weight management for the entire pitching staff. I could also see them trying to trade Lackey back to the West Coast (San Diego would be my guess), if Cherington & Co. conclude that Lackey is a culture-killer, but I assume the hope is that his personal problems and lack of shape were the main culprits and will be corrected before spring training. Agree with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself. BTW, who the hell is Bob Hohler and how'd he get all these sources to talk to him when every other journalist has just reported bits and pieces of rumors? Hohler is the former Red Sox beat writer for the Globe so he has plenty of sources within the organization. Twitter: @Jonathan_Singer/@Soxprospects
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Steve of Charlotte	This would make a great (off Broadway) musical	#19	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 474 10/12/11 10:52 AM	Looks like we are moving from Camelot to Man of LaMacha (you know the inquistition part) all because of a bucket of KFC. Sad!
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adiospaydro2005		#20	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 2286 10/12/11 10:56 AM Veteran Member	Steve of Charlotte wrote: Looks like we are moving from Camelot to Man of LaMacha (you know the inquistition part) all because of a bucket of KFC. Sad! You forgot about the beer, video games, lack of respect for the game, fans, etc. This shit storm will take years for the Red Sox brand to recover. Poorest spending of $3 million that I have ever seen.-fcastig 0220
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