left coast bosox fan wrote:LCBF, a) it's still WAY too early to make any kind of plans on guys as low in the system as those four, nevermind whoever the Sox would draft this year, and b) the Ramirez and Johnson "trades" have pretty much been debunked at this point.
having five draft picks this coming year and waiting for the development of guys like Pimentel, Mendez, Britton and Younginger.
SoxProspects.com
0 Points
Update: Roy Halladay to Philly
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 Arquimedez Bozo |
#141 | |||
|
Posts: 8843 11/30/09 7:44 AM Chris Hatfield |
"They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some
information" - legendary words from a legendary man
"By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy My Twitter / SoxProspects Twitter / SoxProspects on Facebook |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Bury the Hammer |
#142 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 601 11/30/09 8:28 AM Veteran Member |
He said we could sign Halladay and trade for Hanley, so clearly he was referring to next offseason. Unless you think the Marlins will never ever entertain
trading him. Anyway we'd better stop mentioning his name before this thread gets axed too.
Last Edited By: Bury the Hammer 11/30/09 8:31 AM.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
left coast bosox fan |
#143 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 3449 11/30/09 11:09 AM Veteran Member |
Arquimedez Bozo wrote:Just as crazy as assuming that all of those would make it would be to assume that none of them would make it. You throw enough against the wall situation. We're throwing a lot against the wall, particularly in the lower minor tiers. Look at the ages of our top prospects, it's quite unique and there are far more than has ever been there, including after the class of 2005. This coming year looks like a bumper crop of draft prospects, potentially the best ever. I want to see the Sox loaded on draft day, we'll take higher potential, higher risk high schoolers to even higher levels.Hello 2015. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Arquimedez Bozo |
#144 | |||
|
Posts: 8846 11/30/09 12:31 PM Chris Hatfield |
left coast bosox fan wrote:I disagree. If developing a player were a 50-50 proposition, then yes, that would be true. However, it is most certainly not. In 2004, you could have similarly bet that at least one of the Manny Delcarmen, Jarret Gardner, Beau Vaughan, Jose Vaquedano group would become at least a decent MLB starter, and you'd have lost that bet. All were in this site's top 20 (in an admittedly weaker system, but still, that's a fair comparison with the group you list of one top 10 and three 21-30's). I'm not saying that I think they'll all fail or all make it. I'm just saying that they're all much too far away to make any kind of projection as to how they'll help a Major League club down the road to a degree that you would make baseball decisions from that projection.
"They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some
information" - legendary words from a legendary man
"By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy My Twitter / SoxProspects Twitter / SoxProspects on Facebook |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Nexus |
#145 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 340 11/30/09 1:17 PM |
TheGoldenGreek33 wrote: Agree w/ GG on the extension but I think you have to include a premiere guy going to Toronto... and I would pile on age 32-36 Halladay will probably still be one of the best in the game. His age 31 and 32 seasons might have been the best of his career. He's actually gained velo/movement on his pitches the last few years, especially his two-seamer. He's a known workout warrior, a family guy who spends a lot time with charities, and while I don't know whether he's a devout Mormon or not, he probably doesn't focus much attention on habits that could destroy his body internally. Obtaining Halladay would be a game changer. This is much bigger than 37 year old Schilling this time 6 years ago. Halladay has put up Schilling-pre-Red-Sox numbers for years playing against the Rays/Yanks/Sox 57 times a season. And who's to say he's wanting a $100+ million extension anyway? Are we just assuming this based on his resume? Has he or his agent said he's looking for top dollar? Based on personality/background and past contracts, I could see Halladay agreeing to 3/$54 plus a vesting option. This guy picked the Sox, Yanks, Angels, and Phils because he wants to win. Not "whoever can afford me". Buchholz and Kelly are both bigger chips than anything the Yanks can offer as long as Montero does not have a position. I don't like Hughes or Joba because they're both still question marks with only 4 years left of control. Buch with 5 years makes him far more valuable. Angels do not scare me as long as Aybar isn't made available (the Gonzalez signing makes me think he's not). I still think it gets done with us (or someone other than NYY). You can't allow the Yankees and their lesser farm system acquire Halladay.
Last Edited By: Nexus 11/30/09 1:33 PM.
Edited 2 times.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
TokenWilliams |
#146 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 567 11/30/09 11:47 PM |
You don't make a trade for Halladay so the Yankees don't get him if it requires you to give up more than you want to. If Theo doesn't think it's worth it to give up Clay or Kelly then that should stand true whether the Yankees are about to get him or not. Not to mention it's impossible for a team to know whether or not another team is about to get someone or not. How do you know it's not a bluff on the other teams part to get you to include more? Why do people (me) say "not to mention..." then mention it...? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
804Sox |
#147 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 969 12/01/09 1:32 AM |
TokenWilliams wrote: It's like "additionally." Basically, you are implying that the previous reasons were sufficient in demonstrating your point, without you having mentioned the facts that follow "not to mention" |
|||
|
|
||||
|
left coast bosox fan |
#148 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 3450 12/01/09 4:52 AM Veteran Member |
...,plus it gives additional reasoning that might stand on its own merit.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
left coast bosox fan |
#149 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 3451 12/01/09 5:16 AM Veteran Member |
Arquimedez Bozo wrote:I'll disagree. First there's no way the ceilings of the four 2004 pitchers was close to the four I named. I certainly agree that you can't count on even a significant number of the pitchers in our system to come through, however, look at the contract status of our starters in particular. Soon, it isn't likely that we are going to need significant free agent aquisitions for starters for a long time to come unless we CHOSE to deal starting pitching to fill other needs. Not to mention; Tazawa Bowden Kelly Doubront Weiland Fife Wilson Rivera Huntzinger and Perez to catch them (joke). Sorry, I don't think you can count on any pitchers in particular but I can't see the four I named and these pitchers creating any shortages at the majors any time soon. We should be able to maintain a playoff caliber staff with few Doc Halladays on the horizon. Give me the five draft picks.I'll be ecstatic. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
jsinger121 |
#150 | |||
|
Posts: 15580 12/01/09 8:39 AM Jonathan |
Roy Halladay, the All-Star pitcher who has been the subject of much trade talk since before the July deadline, will not approve any proposed deal after he reports to spring training, according to his representatives.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4702760 |
|||
|
|
||||
|
OCD SS |
#151 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 684 12/01/09 9:50 AM Veteran Member |
Yeah, this doesn't look anything like the Santana trade situation... just replace anything about 'getting him out of the AL' with the more specific
'getting him out of the AL East.'
"I'd like to f*ck Sandra Bullock" - Pedro, explaining his secret ambition to Sports
Illustrated for Kids.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Nolson20 |
#152 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 342 12/01/09 10:44 AM |
jsinger121 wrote:Huge twist in this as now they either hang onto him and take the two best picks or trade him by the New Year. I would have to think a deal gets done at or right after the winter meetings. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
chavopepe2 |
#153 | |||
|
Posts: 1173 12/01/09 11:02 AM
|
It's just posturing. If they help onto him until the deadline and then had a trade lined up that would send him to a contender, he would waive his no trade
clause.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Nolson20 |
#154 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 343 12/01/09 11:24 AM |
chavopepe2 wrote: Not sure about that, I heard stories about this past deadline when rumors were swirling about him getting dealt and his wife was promoting a charity and she got bombarded with questions and broke down. If that is the case, I don't fault the guy at all for not wanting to go through the pressures of a deadline deal. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
buffs44444 |
#155 | |||
|
Moderator Veteran Member
Posts: 1423 12/01/09 4:42 PM |
Apparently the Spring Training deadline was news to the Blue Jays GM:
Jays GM: "I'll look into it. If there's something that Halladay's agent said I'll certainly touch base. I just want to hear it for myself." Anthopoulos on working with a deadline: "I don't know if it changes your ability to make a trade one way or the other." twitter link EDIT: leave it to twitter to draw out one paragraph of information over 10 minutes of tweets...... Anthopoulos: "We're going to continue with our offseason the way we always planned."
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
Last Edited By: buffs44444 12/01/09 4:44 PM.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
kingstephanos |
#156 | |||
|
Rookie
Posts: 8 12/01/09 8:25 PM |
Chat with Marc Normandin from Baseball Prospectus
http://baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=679 "Steven (New England): Hey Mark, Using the Santana Trade as a template: Is a trade of Boston players: Casey Kelly (5 star prospect), Jed Lowrie (MLB Utility INF possible SS/2B), plus a B/B- level prospect like a Gibson (SS)[Navarro (INF) or Lin (OF)] for Doc Halladay work? Remember, Santana netted the Twins Carlos Gomez, great defense with a progressing bat, and the Mulvey/Humber/Guerra trio. Not a very impressive bevy of pitchers. In short, Minnosota received 1 really good player plus some filler in the trade - due to Santana's trade demands, his potential extention price tag and having only 1 year left on the existing contract. The Blue Jays can't possibly get much more than the Twins received in their Trade? Marc Normandin: I think Minnesota's deal would actually be a reason to expect the Jays to get more, as they will hold out as long as they can until someone is desperate enough to cave in to their demands. I'm not sure how accurate the reports are, but I kept hearing that the Sox would have to give up both Kelley and Clay Buchholz to make this work. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as much as I love Halladay."
Last Edited By: kingstephanos 12/01/09 8:28 PM.
Edited 1 time.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
FenwayTheHardWay |
#157 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 1675 12/01/09 8:46 PM Veteran Member |
I don't really follow Marc's logic there. The Twins didn't get much, so the Jays will get more? That kind of implies that the Twins didn't get
as much as they could have for Santana... just because?
"Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the
cheese."- Buck Martinez
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
ArodSucksAtLife |
#158 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 3809 12/01/09 9:00 PM Veteran Member |
FenwayTheHardWay wrote: Everyone and their mother thought the Twins got less than they should have at the time, what is wrong with the logic that the Jays will/should get more. hearing that the Sox would have to give up both Kelley and Clay Buchholz to make this work. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as much as I love Halladay." BTW, LOVE that Buchholz's name was just spelt correctly and Kelly's wasn't. The torch has been passed. I am in love with Clayton Kershaw. I want him in me. - Curll84 |
|||
|
|
||||
|
FenwayTheHardWay |
#159 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 1677 12/01/09 9:08 PM Veteran Member |
ArodSucksAtLife wrote: Because it doesn't address WHY the Twins got what they did. If it's because they just made a bad deal, then it makes sense. I don't think that's the case however; because in both cases, what's essentially being traded is the right to negotiate a huge extension for an ace pitcher, and that simply isn't worth more than one star prospect. The Sabathia trade would also seem to support this conclusion. Can you think of a trade that refutes it? I can't.
"Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the
cheese."- Buck Martinez
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Irishfoxxx |
#160 | |||
|
Veteran Member
Posts: 292 12/01/09 9:30 PM Veteran Member |
ArodSucksAtLife wrote: I honestly think this was mostly media created though. I don't think Theo, Cashman or anyone else was offering anywhere near the prospects that were being thrown around in rumors. The rumors seemed mostly to reflect what the Twins were trying to get, or packages that assumed the entire group of what was more likely a "we're willing to part with one or two of these guys," offers from Sox/Yanks. |
|||
|
|
||||
