Yankees player development system gaining ground against the Red Sox?

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adiospaydro2005	Yankees player development system gaining ground against the Red Sox?		Lead	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1387 08/21/09 8:59 AM Veteran Member	Tags : None Warning-Don't choke on your Wheaties reading this article by Massoroti. I don't even know where to start, but I thought it might be worth a separate topic. If for nothing else, it will make you laugh when he compares Chamberlame to Lester, Cano to Pedrioia, and Cabrera/Gardner to Ellsbury. He also conveniently forgets to mention Papelbon, Youkilis, Delcarmen and Buchholz, as well as some of the Red Sox top prospects such as Kelly, Tazawa, Anderson, et al. Tonight, when the New York Yankees rumble into Fenway Park, perception and reality will clash. The team known for its multimillion-dollar superstars will have more than its share of budding youngsters, much to the chagrin of Red Sox supporters who would prefer to paint a far different picture. http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/08/21/systematically_yankees_gain_ground/ Poorest spending of $3 million that I have ever seen.-fcastig 0220
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J51		#1	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 200 08/21/09 9:33 AM Veteran Member	You say Jon Lester, they say Chamberlain. This was a poorly written article. Not only did Massarotti not mention several young players for both teams, he also basically ignored the farm systems aside from a few un-insightful quotes. The above quote about Lester really did it for me. There is not a pitcher on the Yankees I would want over Lester. CC is very close but Lester is younger and much cheaper and their performance is very similar. Joba is not even close to Lester right now. Just because the Red Sox and Yankees have homegrown players playing the same positions does not mean the player development systems are equal.
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EatTheMeeek		#2	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 81 08/21/09 9:34 AM	My personal opinion on this topic is that the Sox bend the Yankees over in the draft every year but they've done a fantastic job in the international market as evidenced by prospects like Montero, Vizcaino, and Banuelos. Massoroti is just trying to rile people up and get his name on peoples minds.
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qutennis5		#3	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 33 08/21/09 10:06 AM	I personally cannot stand Massaroti. The guy is still upset the Sox didn't get Teixeira and he's mentioned him in every single article he's written since. What he also doesn't mention, is that if the Yankees are where they are today in first place, is not because of the farm, but because of their latest purchases (CC, Teix, AJ). Without those 3, the Yanks would still have the highest payroll in baseball and be battling for 4^th place. Can you imagine that rotation without CC and AJ? Or their lineup without Teix's .950ish OPS? That team would be awful, even with all this homegrown talent TM talks about. On the flip side, most of the Sox' best players are the ones that came from the farm. The Lester-Joba comparison is also laughable considering what Lester has accomplished while Joba hasn't even had 1 full productive season.
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Steve Dillard		#4	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1110 08/21/09 10:06 AM	He's right, of course. We love to slag on the Yanks' minor system, but their production (particularly if you break it down to pre-Theo and post-Theo) is on par. They don't have the depth to their farm system, so their system gets rated lower, but they produce the same amount of impact players. As someone noted, we have done better in the drafts, but they have done far, far, far better on the international front. I think the BA ratings factor depth in a lot, so going by that the Yanks farm system has always been rated below the Sox. But if you look at top25 prospects -- i.e. potential "impact" guys, we have no bats, while they have Montero. For pitchers, we have Kelly, while they don't have anyone. The rest are all replacement value type guys, who help keep costs down at the ML level, but do not make or break the team. Theo's success with the 2005 draft really has produced Ellsbury with a OPS+ below major league average, Buchholz who is finding himself and might become Chamberlain (a number 3 starter), and Bard, who might be like Hughes an 8th inning setup guy.
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LondonSox		#5	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 241 08/21/09 10:16 AM	Depth is valued in prospect land because good prospects are rare. You have to plant a lot of seeds for a all star to come out. The Yanks have Montero without a position and not much else. I've no idea who is an elite bat in the Sox system but there's Kalish, Reddick, Lars, Rizzo etc battling to find out. The international point is a good one, which might be why the Sox have ventured deeper there recently. Look at the two studs in the GCL or Stolmy or Doubrant etc To some extent Cano is a very interesting one, he wasn't highly rated and he mainly got a chance due to desperation. If the Yanks have a good season they never call him up.
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qutennis5		#6	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 34 08/21/09 10:23 AM	LondonSox wrote: Depth is valued in prospect land because good prospects are rare. You have to plant a lot of seeds for a all star to come out. The Yanks have Montero without a position and not much else. I've no idea who is an elite bat in the Sox system but there's Kalish, Reddick, Lars, Rizzo etc battling to find out. The international point is a good one, which might be why the Sox have ventured deeper there recently. Look at the two studs in the GCL or Stolmy or Doubrant etc To some extent Cano is a very interesting one, he wasn't highly rated and he mainly got a chance due to desperation. If the Yanks have a good season they never call him up. Wasn't that the same case with Wang? I seem to remember the only reason he got a call is because they were out of pitchers. To be good you have to be lucky, and my goodness, are the Yankees lucky.
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DCRi		#7	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1021 08/21/09 10:27 AM Veteran Member	That was the first of Mazz's articles I had read in a while, and it may be a while before I read another. I think the point made above about impact players has some validity - right now - but over the past four years the Sox system has produced more good major league players than the Yankee system has. I think we might be in a slack period right now because most of the high potential talent in the Sox system is in the lower minors. However, there still is Reddick, who might well become a regular in the next year or two and Bowden, who might well become a starter for the Sox, if not for another team. If Lowrie did not have his arm injuries then he would be counted now as another good graduate from the system. He may yet be that. Anderson has taken a step backwards this year and now it may be 2011 (or late 2010) before he gets to the Sox, assuming this year proves to be an aberration. Kalish might make it a little sooner if he continues to progress. Then there are Wagner and Expo, one of whom (I think Expo) may be Varitek's successor. Right now those are the only players in the upper minors who might be projected as future regulars, and none is a definite yet. So there is a reasonable point that the Sox system is not strong in elite talent at the upper levels right now. The Sox do not have an identifiable big bopper in the system right now, although a couple of this year's draft picks are possibles. Throughout the system this year hitting has been poor. However, unless a team is totally comitted to filling all its positions from within, which the Sox certainly are not, the system has a lot of talent to fill a lot of positions. It is particularly strong in pitching. The one or two elite hitters the Sox will need in the near future may have to be acquired through FA signings or trades. That's not so bad when there are the chips in the system to use in the trades. This is the area where I think the Sox are stronger than the Yankees. Last Edited By: DCRi 08/21/09 10:30 AM. Edited 1 time.
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Steve Dillard		#8	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1111 08/21/09 10:30 AM	Montero without a position is fine. A 19 year old with a.900+ OPS in AA, with 9 homers in 40 games, who might be able to stick at catcher, or else move to LF, 1B or DH is miles ahead of the kid who was #1 in our system all season (Lars Anderson). http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/?pl_id=84503 If you're placing bets, I'd take Montero against the field of Kalish, Reddick, Lars & Rizzo. Not to say Kalish et al won't make the pros, or even start. But I'd think their upside is of being a useful but replaceable Casey Kotchman type first baseman, or even a David Murphy type outfielder, rather than a centerpiece for the franchise or potentially getting MVP votes. For those types, you save hundreds of millions during their pre-free agent years. (the difference between plurging for a Teixeira) For the others, you save maybe ten million (the difference between a cost controlled Ellsbury vs. a replacement level CF).
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SoxSail		#9	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 109 08/21/09 10:48 AM	I was surprised that Cano and Wang weren't highly regarded before thier callups. But sure enough, when I looked it up, their best years were partial ones in AAA and the majors. Additionally, you can't ignore Navarro when listing upper minors potential. Lastly, I don't agree that one of those guys might not have the same value as montero for a few years. Maybe they won't be 12-year stars, but in theor prime, at least one of the group at AA should give you the equivalent value of a .900 OPS first baseman.
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DCRi		#10	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1022 08/21/09 10:49 AM Veteran Member	Maybe hundreds of millions is a bit an exaggeration, but the point is valid. But until Montero is bopping in the bigs he still is just a prospect. A lot can happen. The Sox can be faulted for not signing a couple of high-impact players they drafted, Alvarez, etc. but I think it is a bit unreasonable to criticize them for not having more high impact players in the system. There just are not many of those throughout baseball. In fact, I think there are fewer now than anytime I can remember. Periodically I go through the BAs of both leagues and try to identify players who might be significant additions to the Sox. There are some, but it always surprises me how few there are. I was not ignoring Navarro, but until a player makes that transition to AA and performs well there he cannot be ranked as a near term potential big league player. He has not made that transition successfully yet. It will be next year before we find out about him. Last Edited By: DCRi 08/21/09 10:52 AM. Edited 2 times.
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Bury the Hammer		#11	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 510 08/21/09 10:50 AM Veteran Member	Looking forward to Massorati's equally reactionary piece "Red Sox Decade of Dominance over Yanks" if they get farther than NY once again this year.
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DCRi	Baseball Prospectus ranking of GMs places Sox near the top, Yankees not	#12	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1023 08/21/09 11:11 AM Veteran Member	Very interesting piece in Baseball Prospectus today about a way of financially measuring the success of GMs. The method measures payroll against wins, giving more weight to the wins that really result in more revenue (i.e. wins around the 90 mark). There are various measurements, but the last and most complex ranked the Sox second last year, behind the Rays, and fifth so far this year, with the Rays still on top. The Yankees are way down the list. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9418 subscription required
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Sbones13		#13	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 56 08/21/09 11:28 AM	Steve Dillard wrote: If you're placing bets, I'd take Montero against the field of Kalish, Reddick, Lars & Rizzo. Not to say Kalish et al won't make the pros, or even start. But I'd think their upside is of being a useful but replaceable Casey Kotchman type first baseman, or even a David Murphy type outfielder, rather than a centerpiece for the franchise or potentially getting MVP votes. I'll take the field. Not even analyzing the specific players, I'd almost always take the field on a question like this. That's why depth is so key with prospects, because the odds are against even the best prospects. I'd take the Field (the field being all the other Sox pitching prospects) vs. Casey Kelly. Youkilis and Pedroia were nothing more than "Depth" prospects, now they're the centerpiece of our lineup. More is better. And Masterson should figure prominently in the Masserati discussion even though we traded him. We got a good year and a half, plus a post-season, from the guy. Who's the Yankees answer to him, Robertson?
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tdrowe		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 961 08/21/09 11:43 AM Tyler Editor SoxProspects.com	On the surface, this article raises a valid point that the Yankees' developmental/scouting system has gained ground on the Red Sox', but the major-league examples are cherry-picked and pretty ridiculous. It is true the Yankees have had more success internationally, and I think this is more a scouting advantage than a developmental one. The emergence of Montero has certainly helped the Yankees case to gaining ground on the Red Sox, but the depth of the Sox system is undeniable despite the trades the Red Sox made this July. That is where the added value the Sox system has over the Yankees shows its face. The Yankees have to usually go out and sign a player to a high contract than dealing from a position of strength via trade. While some of get upset that we don't go out and sign a certain top-flight free agent, but instead (consider a) trade players for proven talents, that really is why the Red Sox development system is so powerful. Someone here posted recently that we should root for Red Sox minor leaguers who have been traded to do well with their new organizations. This is so true and has happened (see Hanley Ramirez). While the Yankees have gained a little ground, they still have a long way to go if they ever want to be able to reduce payroll as the Sox have done and keep cost-controlled players peppered among their team core.
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mseskin		#15	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 67 08/21/09 12:13 PM	Sbones13 wrote: Steve Dillard wrote: If you're placing bets, I'd take Montero against the field of Kalish, Reddick, Lars & Rizzo. Not to say Kalish et al won't make the pros, or even start. But I'd think their upside is of being a useful but replaceable Casey Kotchman type first baseman, or even a David Murphy type outfielder, rather than a centerpiece for the franchise or potentially getting MVP votes. I'll take the field. Not even analyzing the specific players, I'd almost always take the field on a question like this. That's why depth is so key with prospects, because the odds are against even the best prospects. I'd take the Field (the field being all the other Sox pitching prospects) vs. Casey Kelly. Youkilis and Pedroia were nothing more than "Depth" prospects, now they're the centerpiece of our lineup. More is better. And Masterson should figure prominently in the Masserati discussion even though we traded him. We got a good year and a half, plus a post-season, from the guy. Who's the Yankees answer to him, Robertson? Youkilis I'll grant you, but calling Pedey a depth prospect is pretty wrong... He was the Sox first pick (2nd Round) in 2004. Clearly they valued him pretty highly.
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edwardcc		#16	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 361 08/21/09 1:01 PM	I really don't think the Yankees have been near as successful building through the farm system though they have started to close the gap some (just in fact that they have hit on their top guys lately, their depth still stinks IMO). Currently our the Yankees roster there are: Alfredo Aceves 08' IFA Chien Ming Wang 00' IFA Brett Gardner 05' Joba Chamberlain 06' Phil Coke 02' Phil Hughes 04' Andy Pettite 91' Mariano Rivera 90' IFA Jorge Posada 90' Robinson Cano 01' IFA Derek Jeter 92' Melky Cabrera 01' IFA Ramiro Pena 05' IFA They have three prospects that I really like in Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero, and Zach McAllister. The Red Sox have on their roster: Daniel Bard 06' Clay Buchholz 05' Manny Delcarmen 00' Jon Lester 02' Hideki Okajima 06' IFA Jonathan Papelbon 03' Junichi Tazawa 08' IFA Dustin Pedroria 04' Kevin Youkilis 01' Jacoby Ellsbury 05' Jed Lowrie 05' Daisuke Matsuzaka 06' IFA They have also used arguably some of their best prospects to acquire three big pieces on their team in Hanley Ramirez, Masterson, Hagadone and Craig Hansen to get Victor Martinez, Beckett, and Bay. The Sox still have a ton of prospects with big time upside in Reddick, Kelly, Anderson, Westmoreland and Kalish (possibly Rizzo). And some really solid guys like Bowden, Pimentel, Doubront, Exposito, Navarro, Lin, Fife, Weiland, etc. I understand that of all those young internally developed guys that Montero may have the biggest bat potential but he better because he is going to be a DH with Tex there for the next 8 years. That doesn't diminish the importance of developing a middle of the order bat but I don't think the Yanks "recent" farm system compares to us when one includes chips we have traded away and those currently in our farm system. Our depth in way better than theirs. That all being said, the Yanks don't need a tremendous farm system, they merely need a pretty good one because they can outspend us by a large margin in the international and domestic free agent market. Going forward, one must assume anybody that we both target as a free agent automatically goes to the Yanks unless there are mitigating circumstances. As Damon and Teixeira (and probably to a lesser degree Sabbathia and Burnett ), the Yanks will pay whatever to get their guy. Now, I hope that they have extended their financial limits somewhat and won't be able to afford say Halladay and Mauer when and if they reach the market but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Vicequaizer		#17	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 295 08/21/09 1:27 PM Veteran Member	Just for fun, a list of NYY / BOS farm products that actually did something noteworthy for their parent teams in the last few years currently on the 25-man. Correct me if I forgot a few from the Red Sox details. High impact player: NYY Robinson Cano, Joba Chamberlain BOS Jon Lester, Jonathan Papelbon, Dustin Pedroia, Kevin Youkilis Solid Regular player/potential to be high impact: NYY Melky Cabrera- Probably end up as what he is right now: a solid enough glove at CF who has enough pop for double digit HRs and hit enough to be a solid 9-hitter (if there is such a thing) that isn't considered a black hole. Probably better used in tandem with Brett Gardner. NYY Phil Hughes- Great in relief, and assuming he returns to the rotation next season, can potentially be a good starter as well. BOS Daniel Bard- A closer potential set up guy. However I don't see him be a starter, ever. BOS Clay Buchholz- Appeared with a bang, fell off the cliff, then settled down again. Eventually might end up to be a solid starter for long term. BOS Jacoby Ellsbury- Shaping up to be a good CF and leadoff hitter. Won't ever be a power hitter, but steals a lot to make up for it and will be a good asset in the top of the lineup. Could be a good player with some Allstar appearances on peak years, but certainly not the player with the stats of his first call up. Bench player/middle reliever arms: NYY Alfredo Aceves- Simply put, a Ramiro Mendoza-role. NYY Phil Coke- An extreme split guy, with a 0.84 WHIP against lefties and a 1.5+ WHIP against righties. If Joe Girardi ever learns to not pitch him against righties, can be a solid LOOGY. NYY Ramiro Pena- A great glove, no bat, defensive utility man. Won't ever start, but the useful enough #24-man of the 25-man roster. NYY David Robertson- Love the strike outs, hates the walks. A Jekyll and Hyde that can be brought in with bases loaded with 1 out and get the Ks, or walk in 2 batters. BOS Manny Delcarmen- A good, solid 7th inning guy who can potentially be a set up. BOS Junichi Tazawa- Called up way too early and quite frankly, not ready. However, currently the best 5th starter available for Boston. BOS Ramon Ramirez- Hard to comment, to be frank. Don't know him enough. Not on 25-man, but worth mentioning: NYY Francisco Cervelli- Likely the backup catcher in 2010, highly doubt he will ever be a starter but has decent defensive skills enough to be the backup catcher for enough teams to be able to find jobs. NYY Brett Gardner- I actually like him more than Melky Cabrera considering what he brings to the game. For the lack of better words, an Ellsbury Lite in nearly every way as he is also a speedster with a solid glove in CF, but a bit lacking to Ellsbury in everything with the bat. NYY Chien-Ming Wang- Was a very good~borderline ace starter from late 2005~early 2008 with a 54-20 high-3 ERA innings eater, but after injury and surgery, likely career over so lower in the rankings but certainly done enough recently to be considered a success. BOS Jed Lowrie- Might be able to stop the SS-merry-go-round, or might be not. Jury is still out. BOS Justin Masterson- Was a serviceable enough long-man for this year, but now gone from the team. Too old to count as recent farm, but worth mentioning: NYY Mariano Rivera- Arguably the best closer in history of modern baseball. Old but still one of the best in the game. NYY Derek Jeter- Severely overrated by Yankee fans, and extremely underrated by Yankee haters. Like him or not, still will end up being a first ballot HOFer in the end. NYY Jorge Posada- Old and well past peak, but still one of the better offensive catchers in the game. NYY Andy Pettitte- Old and well past peak, but a solid enough back of rotation pitcher. BOS Jason Varitek- Was a solid defensive catcher with some offensive spurts for a long time. Even more interesting is the current "home grown" rate of both team...on the 25-man roster as of today, Yankees are 12/25 home grown and the Red Sox are 11/25 home grown tho Red Sox has more young high impact players, despite both teams having more of a FA-team image.
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soxcentral		#18	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1002 08/21/09 1:32 PM Veteran Member	We have been wiped out by the Yanks over the last month, and this is our hometown writer now dumping on our development system to boot, right before a critical series? Wow. To the depth question raised here, I would say it depends on the type of depth you are speaking of when determining whether it is valuable or not. Focusing on the recent haul of talent, guys like Westmoreland, Middlebrooks, Almanzar, Fuentes, Iglesias, Renfroe, Vinicio, Kelly, Younginer, etc. have the potential to all be Top 100 prospects in the next couple years. They are extremely talented athletes, far from the Dobies, Abe Alvarez-types from years past. Now, obviously they won't all reach that level, and likely 1 or 2 at most will get there. But they all have significant potential, and that type of depth is a key difference in the two systems as they stand currently. Yeah, they have a stud in Montero and we could really use a young bat like that. They probably are in the top half of systems throughout the league, but that is not enough to state that they have caught up to what we have.
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jsinger121		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 15219 08/21/09 1:33 PM Jonathan Staff Writer SoxProspects.com	Ramon Ramirez is not a Red Sox farm product. He was acquired via Kansas City for Coco Crisp so I would not include him on that list. I'll be there, watching the Sox representation of mid-rotation starters. -TheGoldenGreek33 on Casey Kelly
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brox13		#20	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1494 08/21/09 1:33 PM Moderator	Is Joba really a "high impact" player this season? I'm hearing Hudson wants to become a hitter - his exact quote: "Baby-Hühner graben die lange Kugel"
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