Red Sox acquire Victor Martinez for Masterson, Hagadone, and Price

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templeUsox

#201

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07/31/09 6:59 PM

Ian
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Peter Gammons did not put his best foot forward this trading season.

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TheGoldenGreek33

#202

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07/31/09 7:00 PM

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He's been off his game for a while. When was the last time he broke a major trade?

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ancientsoxfogey

#203

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07/31/09 7:10 PM

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Given the way Lowell is hobbling around, isn't it a distinct possibility that he goes to the DL once VMart arrives in town?

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Yirmiyahu

#204

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07/31/09 7:15 PM

So, thinking about what our lineup should look like, I looked up everyone's cumulative 2008-2009 splits...

vs RHP	OBP	SLG	OPS
Youk	.387	.548	.935	3B
Ortiz	.361	.477	.837	DH
Martinez	.345	.406	.751	C
Kotchman	.339	.404	.743	1B
Lowell	.319	.440	.758
Kottaras	.321	.423	.744
Varitek	.311	.361	.672

vs LHP	OBP	SLG	OPS
Youk	.426	.607	1.033	3B
Lowell	.388	.568	.956	DH
Varitek	.373	.512	.885	C
Martinez	.377	.472	.849	1B
Kotchman	.335	.422	.757
Ortiz	.306	.451	.756
Kottaras	.217	.211	.428

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MaleNurse2010

#205

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07/31/09 7:18 PM

TheGoldenGreek33 wrote:
He's been off his game for a while. When was the last time he broke a major trade?

Give the dude a break his small case of the studders became really evident after the aneurysm so I assume part of his brain got baked from lack of oxygen.

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TheGoldenGreek33

#206

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07/31/09 7:22 PM

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Then he needs to retire.

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charliezink16

#207

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07/31/09 7:36 PM

What really stuck out to me in this deal is that many people thought the hardest part was losing Hagadone. But I am not too high on Hagadone because of two things.

1) He is 23 years old and still in single A Greenville.

2) He is coming off of Tommy John surgery.

IMO this could mean if he were to make the majors as a reliever, it would come at a time when he is cleary a post prospect. Because of these points, I am very happy of the deal Theo pulled off for Victor and cant wait to see him in the lineup.

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soxfreak13

#208

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07/31/09 7:58 PM

German RSN wrote:

soxfreak13 wrote:
I hadn't thought of that, that makes me feel a little better about this deal. I like Martinez a lot as a player but the fact that there really isn't an open space for him to play every day coupled with the fact that the Red Sox are very loyal to the "guys that got them there" like Lowell and Ortiz made me a little apprehensive about giving away Hagadone. Masterson was a great guy to watch in interviews and he served an important role out of the bullpen but to me, you won't be able to keep a middle reliever past his arbitration years and when he started I just never got the feeling that he'd ever amount to anything more than a 5th starter. I almost wish they had traded MORE major league talent like Lowell or Ortiz in a separate trade to a National league contender in the National league or anywhere that would take him in Ortiz's, so they would get a tad younger and healthier and get a few minor league pieces in the process.

You're aware of the fact that there's no DH in the National League? Why should a NL team trade for Ortiz when they can't have him in the line-up at least 4 out of 5 games

I do realize that, it was a brainfart, I had to get up halfway through writing it and I thought I had actually wrote " I almost wish they had traded MORE major league talent like Lowell or Ortiz in a separate trade to a contender in the National league in Lowell's case, or anywhere that would take him in Ortiz's"
My bad

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all4it232

#209

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07/31/09 10:10 PM

Considering Martinez is statistically almost identical to a Lowell or Youkilis or Bay, what exactly was the point? I mean, the Sox simply added one more of what they already have and gave up 2 first round picks and a very solid, young reliever/starter with a lively fastball. WTF? I could give two craps about Price, but I think Hagadone is going to be something special and Masterson has awesome potential if he can hang his slider less and develop a third pitch. This is a horrible deal IMO, now what do we do with this obnoxious gluttony of bats at 1B/DH/C?? Really?

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packageforbutch

#210

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07/31/09 10:12 PM

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What's your second terrible point?

______________________________________________________________________________
I got in a fight at the roulette table over what I considered an odd number- Stephen Wright

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gregblossersbelly

Lineup

#211

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07/31/09 10:15 PM

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I see Victor DHing against lefties for Ortiz, playing some 1b with Youkilis sliding over to third, and the rest of the time
he will catch. Here's my lineups. I have V.Martinez catching against righties, but I'm sure he will play 1b quite a bit against
righties too and Kotchman will sit.

vs Lefties
Ellsbury - CF
Pedroia - 2B
Youkilis - 1B
Martinez - DH
Bay - LF
Lowell - 3B
Drew/Rocco - RF
Tek - C
Lowrie - SS

vs Righties
Ellsbury - CF
Pedroia - 2B
Youkilis - 3B
Ortiz - DH
Martinez - C
Bay - LF
Drew - RF
Kotchman - 1B
Lowrie - SS

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ancientsoxfogey

#212

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07/31/09 10:19 PM

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Huh?? What's the problem? The Sox actually have 6 players covering 4 positions - C, DH, 1B, 3B - which allows 7 players to cover the other 5 positions. Sounds fairly balanced to me. The agony is the possibility of having to part ways with Kottaras, I guess.

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DaveLNH

#213

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07/31/09 10:23 PM

Contributing Photographer

TheGoldenGreek33 wrote:
Then he needs to retire.

I don't care how many posts you've made here... that's harsh

"What sort of movie would Rudy have been if he had just stopped and given up after two rejections?
Would have been alot shorter, probably been alot funnier"

Micheal Scott

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klostrophobic

#214

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07/31/09 10:25 PM

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How can you be statistically similar to Mike Lowell and Kevin Youkilis?

The obnoxious gluttony turns into an awesome platoon where Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek play significantly less.

Postponed: Wind

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soxcentral

#215

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07/31/09 10:31 PM

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MaleNurse2010 wrote:

TheGoldenGreek33 wrote:
He's been off his game for a while. When was the last time he broke a major trade?
Give the dude a break his small case of the studders became really evident after the aneurysm so I assume part of his brain got baked from lack of oxygen.

He wrote insightful columns at the Globe for decades, built great relationships with people in the industry , and by all accounts he is a very decent human being. Obviously, Gammons is a little bit past his prime and internet media have trumped his role to a large extent, but he still delivers useful information and in my opinion is a valuable member of the MLB media contingent.

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templeUsox

#216

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07/31/09 10:35 PM

Ian
Northeast Scout
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I think he's just in over his head in terms of people he has to carry water for. It's almost like he has lost the forest for the trees. Everything he proclaims sounds like he is parroting someone's party line.

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all4it232

#217

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07/31/09 10:39 PM

You can be statistically similar by hitting .284 with 15 homers. I just don't see either of these deals as impact deals. For example, if Mike Lowell sits and Youkilis plays third with Martinez at first, all you've done is subtracted defensively at first and moved it over to third and put pretty much the same bat in the lineup (check it out, not a big difference between Lowell and Martinez in a batting order, namely just the 4 home runs). I really don't think this platooning thing will make Varitek, Lowell, or Ortiz remotely happy.

This isn't a terrible point; you have an adequate hitting third baseman, first baseman, and DH. Why add another pretty identical hitter to the mix even if it's mostly to supplant Varitek (who happens to be the team captain). Now Varitek is wasting a roster space?

I just don't think the move makes a lot of logistical sense at this particular juncture. I think Hagadone and Masterson have way too much potential to be moved unless they are part of a package for a true impact bat on the level of Manny Ramirez (in which case they can be nicely packaged with Buchholz). I don't think Casey Kotchman and Victor Martinez are going to give us any better of a shot at a World Series than what we already have because they aren't enough of an upgrade for whoever gets benched for them

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jsinger121

#218

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07/31/09 10:46 PM

Jonathan
Affiliate Correspondent
SoxProspects.com

all4it232 wrote:
You can be statistically similar by hitting .284 with 15 homers. I just don't see either of these deals as impact deals. For example, if Mike Lowell sits and Youkilis plays third with Martinez at first, all you've done is subtracted defensively at first and moved it over to third and put pretty much the same bat in the lineup (check it out, not a big difference between Lowell and Martinez in a batting order, namely just the 4 home runs). I really don't think this platooning thing will make Varitek, Lowell, or Ortiz remotely happy.

This isn't a terrible point; you have an adequate hitting third baseman, first baseman, and DH. Why add another pretty identical hitter to the mix even if it's mostly to supplant Varitek (who happens to be the team captain). Now Varitek is wasting a roster space?

I just don't think the move makes a lot of logistical sense at this particular juncture. I think Hagadone and Masterson have way too much potential to be moved unless they are part of a package for a true impact bat on the level of Manny Ramirez (in which case they can be nicely packaged with Buchholz). I don't think Casey Kotchman and Victor Martinez are going to give us any better of a shot at a World Series than what we already have because they aren't enough of an upgrade for whoever gets benched for them

You are not getting a Manny Ramirez type hitter for a 23 year old LHP in Low A and a setup guy in Masterson. That just doesn't happen. I like Hagadone but the TJS really set him back in his timeframe. He still has tons of potential but you move a guy like him for Victor Martinez. Masterson's value to me was never going to be any higher than what it was now. I see him as a right handed specialist out of the pen since his ability to get out lefties is non existent right now.

Twitter: @Jonathan_Singer/@Soxprospects

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templeUsox

#219

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07/31/09 10:48 PM

Ian
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I'm willing to put a substantial amount of money on the proposition that Masterson's value will never be higher than it is now.

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all4it232

#220

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07/31/09 10:52 PM

Well I agree with that, but I imagine if Buchholz was added in the package with another mid-level prospect then you get the impact bat. The fact is, a couple guys are going to end up with a lot more bench time and now we have one less reliable bullpen arm, which I don't think we can afford considering Francona seems afraid to use anyone other than Masterson past an inning these days.

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Red Sox acquire Victor Martinez for Masterson, Hagadone, and Price