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 MVPedroia15 |
#101 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 53 12/15/09 2:18 PM |
Steve Dillard wrote: packageforbutch wrote: That could work out, actually. Cameron keeps the seat warm for Kalish, who many think has leadoff potential, and in the meantime we go with Scutaro at leadoff. Then we get to keep Clay in our stellar rotation. As for the pairing with Ellsbury, maybe Westy, Bowden, Kotchman? |
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Nolson20 |
#102 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 390 12/15/09 2:18 PM |
I think we need to get off of this Ellsbury to San Diego talk.
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buffs44444 |
#103 | |||
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Moderator Veteran Member
Posts: 1550 12/15/09 2:27 PM |
Nolson20 wrote:I'm not in a rush to deal Jacoby, nor do I think it's likely that he is dealt, but at the same time the redundant assets in CF and the pressing need for a middle of the order bat seem to make it at least a consideration. Again though, I'm in no rush to deal him if for no other reason than that I have several family members who are OSU alum and I've been watching him since he was playing in Corvallis.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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Guidas |
#104 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 125 12/15/09 2:28 PM |
Nolson20 wrote:Agreed. |
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jdb |
#105 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 349 12/15/09 2:34 PM |
I agree. I look for Hoyer to hold onto him at least till the deadline. Get a feel of the organization and their needs before he deals him. Heck they finished last year on fire and could be competitive for all I know. Thats why im leaning against Beltre unless we get him at a bargin on a 2 year deal. |
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Union4Sox |
#106 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 304 12/15/09 2:40 PM |
MVPedroia15 wrote: I disagree with Nolson about getting off the Ellsbury talk, I think it is a strong possibility. But, MVPedroia15, there is no way the Sox trade Westmoreland. Especially if they ship out Ellsbury. How would that make sense? Back to the practical situation. Ellsbury has likely lost favor with the Sox brass. And again, he is another example of a Red Sox hitter who fairs terribly against good pitching. I'd like to see Ellsbury's numbers against pitchers with: an ERA under 4.0 or a WHIP below 1.6 or a K/9 of above 6 (with at least 70 IP), etc. I was out of the market this past season and didn't catch as many games as I normally would have, but in the games I did watch, Ellsbury was anything but reliable against good pitching. We all know the FO views his defense as sub-par. And I think they grade out Westmoreland as one of their best all around prospects (non-pitching) since maybe Garciaparra. Injury concerns aside, Westmoreland could probably break the roster in mid 2011 (he is projected as arriving in 2013, but there is no reason to think he couldn't play as a 21 year old). I'm not a huge fan of platooning an entire outfield, but if it brings in one of the top 10 hitters in the league (one could easily place A. Gon in the top 5) I am all for it. And I'm not entirely sure Hoyer would trade A-Gon either, especially w/o getting the better of the deal, but I think the Sox are up to something when you couple Clay lacking a spot in the 2010 rotation with their apparent pursuit of capable outfielders .
Last Edited By: Union4Sox 12/15/09 2:45 PM.
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bigwilt2243 |
#107 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 27 12/15/09 2:51 PM |
I don't know if I buy this he doesn't hit good pitching argument all that much. I think you would be hard pressed to find to many guys who hit good
pitching well. I mean just by definition a good pitcher is suppose to be hard to hit which means people don't succeed against them all that often.
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 Yirmiyahu |
#108 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 752 12/15/09 2:56 PM |
Union4Sox wrote:On what basis do you say this? I haven't heard anything of the sort, but I could have just missed it. I would be totally in favor of including Ellsbury in a trade for Adrian Gonzalez or Hanley Ramirez or Joey Votto, etc. But it would have nothing to do with disliking Ellsbury. |
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Union4Sox |
#109 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 305 12/15/09 3:00 PM |
bigwilt2243 wrote: Understood and I thought of that as a counterpoint to my argument. I still think you can look through the best hitters and see evidence of their ability to hit talented pitching. Overall, there won't be strong numbers against pitchers like Rivera, Halladay, Lincecum, Greinke, etc. But, there has to be some stat that demonstrates a hitter's ability to compete against better pitching. Just from an observational standpoint, is there anyone who disagree with me assessment of Ellsbury? I mean, I could be totally off, but I can remember many times when he looked completely lost against a top pitcher. He is young, that is fair. But, there is also a chance that his pitch recognition and ability to adjust to good pitching will not improve. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player/ won't have a successful career. I just question if he is worth the opportunity cost of a better hitter. |
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Union4Sox |
#110 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 306 12/15/09 3:01 PM |
Yirmiyahu wrote:Sorry, that was too strong of a statement. Maybe "lost favor" wasn't the correct phrase. I just think they grade him out as an expendable piece of the overall puzzle. |
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AMarshal2 |
#111 | |||
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Posts: 9112 12/15/09 3:06 PM
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Union4Sox wrote: On what basis do you say this? I think Theo LOVES Jacoby. I don't think Theo is looking at one year of Ellsbury's UZR and drawing large conclusions. I don't think Theo is looking at UZR. Theo has said publicly that he thinks Jacoby can be a good center fielder and that he believes he will continue to improve his hitting. This is what I believe because it is all I have to evaluate what Theo thinks about Jacoby (well, that and reason -- Jacoby is a good player). In short, I think you are wrong. This is not to say they won't trade him for the right price, but I absolutely think they value him highly. edit: Softened my language. There's just too much baseless speculation going on.
aminahyaquin: Alou is a 37 year old 7 time MVP with a .347 lifetime batting average and a world of hustle. he
can golden glove field in his sleep.
tGG: Alou is actually 42, has never won an MVP, has a .303 lifetime batting average, and is mediocre at best in the field. joshv02: But, other than that, you're wrong.
Last Edited By: AMarshal2 12/15/09 3:14 PM.
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JimRiceRocks |
#112 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1224 12/15/09 3:17 PM Veteran Member |
Agree 100% Aaron. I think they were really happy with progression this past year and really getting their philosophy. He took more pitches and had a much
better OBP in the second half. That went a long way to endearing himself to the Sox FO. Again, I agree that they may still trade him in the right deal.
And Union, "Westmoreland could probably break the roster in mid 2011 (he is projected as arriving in 2013, but there is no reason to think he couldn't play as a 21 year old)." Seriously? I really don't want them to trade Westy and think he has awesome potential. But projecting him to break into the Boston in 2011 at age 21 after 3/4 of a short season stint with Lowell is foolish.
"You can never have too much bitching" - left coast bosox fan
"No wonder a lot of opponent's announcers have bullpenis envy - left coast bosox fan |
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Union4Sox |
#113 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 307 12/15/09 3:18 PM |
AMarshal2 wrote:I respect your view. But, seeing as both of our views are based purely on speculation, I don't think there is merit (but perhaps a bit of irony) in you saying I am "very wrong". For the most part, I take Theo's comments with a grain of salt. He keeps his true opinions close to the vest. I didn't mean to insinuate that the Sox have a low value of him, I just meant to say that he quite possibly is expendable. I love Ellsbury, he has been someone I have followed since he was drafted. If I am in fact very wrong, I will admit it. I'm just speculating that when Theo looks at his team and views the opportunity cost of potential transactions, I don't see Ellsbury as the one who gets in the way of a deal being completed. |
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Union4Sox |
#114 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 308 12/15/09 3:20 PM |
JimRiceRocks wrote:Agreed. I was being overzealous. |
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AMarshal2 |
#115 | |||
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Posts: 9113 12/15/09 3:33 PM
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Union4Sox wrote: I don't think there is any irony, you picked up on exactly what I meant to say. I carefully stated that my speculation is that your speculation is wrong. I wasn't putting my opinion above yours. What bothered me is that you seemed to take your speculation as fact. I didn't mean to insinuate that the Sox have a low value of him, I just meant to say that he quite possibly is expendable.That's now what you said. You said: We all know the FO views his defense as sub-par. Followed by: I just think they grade him out as an expendable piece of the overall puzzle.This very clearly means, "they think his level of play is such that he is expendable." I don't take Theo's public comments with a grain of salt. Personally, I cannot remember a time when he did not stand by them or when his actions later contradicted his public words. I know that you are not alone in your opinion. Many people seem to think Theo tries to game the system by saying what he wants people to believe. I don't believe this is true at all. I think Theo says what he says to try and reassure the fanbase. He wants you to believe that JD Drew is good so you stop booing him. He wants you to believe that Jacoby has a good chance of becoming an excellent player one day so that you have patience with him when he struggles. I don't see Ellsbury as the one who gets in the way of a deal being completed.I don't think he's untouchable by any means, but that player needs to be pretty good.
aminahyaquin: Alou is a 37 year old 7 time MVP with a .347 lifetime batting average and a world of hustle. he
can golden glove field in his sleep.
tGG: Alou is actually 42, has never won an MVP, has a .303 lifetime batting average, and is mediocre at best in the field. joshv02: But, other than that, you're wrong.
Last Edited By: AMarshal2 12/15/09 3:37 PM.
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BVLyons17 |
#116 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 1 12/15/09 3:43 PM |
I dont like the idea of packaging Jacoby and Buch for AGon.
Maybe a deal of Bowden and MDC with Exposito in there would get AGon. With Cameron He adds a veteran presence lost in Lowell. Cant wait to see Jose Iglesias And Stomly maybe 2011 or 2012 |
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JimRiceRocks |
#117 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1225 12/15/09 3:48 PM Veteran Member |
BVLyons17 wrote:I hope you are joking. Bowden, MDC, and Expo for AGon? If you were running the Padres would you do this? I didn't think so. You would laugh at it - or should. Ellsbury and Buch are probably bit too much for my liking, though.
"You can never have too much bitching" - left coast bosox fan
"No wonder a lot of opponent's announcers have bullpenis envy - left coast bosox fan |
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DonCaballero |
#118 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 383 12/15/09 3:49 PM |
I had a dream. Jacoby, Kelly and Bowden for Votto. Yay or nay?
And yes, I really do have a mancrush on Votto, and would very much rather have him than AGon. |
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packageforbutch |
#119 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 567 12/15/09 3:50 PM Veteran Member |
Yeah, maybe the'll take Kotchman straight-up. WTF? Edit: in re: bowden, mdc & expo for AG
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I got in a fight at the roulette table over what I considered an odd number- Stephen Wright
Last Edited By: packageforbutch 12/15/09 3:53 PM.
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JimRiceRocks |
#120 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1226 12/15/09 3:50 PM Veteran Member |
Don't forget there is a trade proposal subforum
"You can never have too much bitching" - left coast bosox fan
"No wonder a lot of opponent's announcers have bullpenis envy - left coast bosox fan |
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