Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?

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Pantera		#21	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 336 11/28/09 12:40 PM	I don't know how you could argue a kid well ahead of the age curve in AA and posting a 900+ OPS in his last 300 PAs as a tweener. Probably the same people who had similar things to say about Pedroia, Youk, and Lester. The way that you can argue this is that his 900 OPS over his last 300 PAs was driven by his last 28 ABs in which he had a 400+ BABIP. In July and August he had an .860 OPS. Besides, performance in the second half in the minors can be misleading. Most of the best prospects are either in AAA or in the majors by the time August roles around. Plus 300 PAs isn't enough time for the league to figure out your weaknesses and attack them enough to materially effect your performance. Secondly you use a bit of revisionist history to make your point. Lester for one was almost universally loved by everyone in the industry other than Dave Cameron. In the other two examples you use two of the more unusual players in baseball. Pedroia was a small guy with a big swing who wasn't fast or particularly athletic. Pedroia's hand eye coordination is freakish so that he's able to drive the ball often enough to be successful. Plus he's smart enough to cut down on his swing with two strikes. However most similar players will likely not be as successful as Pedroia. Youkilis improved his strength and bat speed at an older age. NO ONE, not even the Red Sox thought he'd be as good as he is today. As you may remember, the Red Sox were willing to trade him and Shoppach to the Royals for half a season of Carlos Beltran. Fortunately, for the Red Sox, Allaird Baird turned that deal down and sent Beltran to Houston. I'm not saying that Kalish's performance, especially in the second half isn't relevant or that those that think he's not going to start in the majors are right. However I don't think that strong performance over roughly two months in the eastern league proves very much.
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nheck		#22	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 203 11/28/09 12:41 PM	Yirmiyahu wrote: This whole discussion reminds me a bit of J.D. Drew. Batting average around .280, good OBP, strong arm, questions around whether he's good enough to play center, but plays great defense in RF, won't hit 30 HR's or 100 RBI's... Sounds good to me. I think he's definitely on the Drew/Brian Giles career path, he just needs the team that can appreciate his skillset. We know that Boston does, teams like San Diego and Oakland with saber oriented FO's and relatively large outfields would be great fits too. I once lost a bet on who would have the highest season SLG% because of a scorer. The guy I had a bet with had a clear error ruled a double in the last game of the season and it was the margin of victory. It was amateur baseball and normally not something you would remember but in this case, the bet was who was going to ask a hot chick named Brin out after she lost her loser boyfriend. The other guy won, she broke up with her bf and he took her out. A year later they got married. Did I mention that she was hot, very hot ? Oh yeah, the official scorer was the other guys mother. I hate official scorers. - LCBF
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BLumbergh		#23	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 380 11/28/09 12:45 PM Veteran Member	It's also worth noting that Goldstein calls his arm "a little short for right field" in his Top 11 ranking.
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USG		#24	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 11 11/28/09 1:17 PM	Nexus wrote: Josh - You're right. After rereading his post comparing to my response, I should not have said that. USG - my apologies. I read it, assumed you had looked at his '09 OPS at AA, compared it to his short stint at Salem, and made your post-promotion slump conclusion. His May was downright brutal and definitely falls in the "post-promotion slump" category. Obviously, my point was his 2nd half in AA actually outperformed his time in Salem... unlike Navarro who was lost at the plate in AA this year. With Kalish, all I saw was a 21 year old who, after a disasterous May and "ehh" June, performed at a level offensively that rivaled only Santana in Akron. Again, this after coming back from injury and adjusting to advanced pitching. Maybe it was luck... maybe it was the EL trying to figure this guy out... Regardless, the important numbers improved across the board throughout the year. I don't know how you could argue a kid well ahead of the age curve in AA and posting a 900+ OPS in his last 300 PAs as a tweener. Probably the same people who had similar things to say about Pedroia, Youk, and Lester. No problem at all. I definitely realize how Kalish's year went in Portland. I do a daily recap of minor league lines at another site and, by the end of the year, was calling him "the indomitable Ryan Kalish". I was just saying pretty much exactly what you were--a post promotion slump is the only reason his Portland numbers don't look as good or better than his Salem numbers. It was not an all-around average performance, just one with a predictable curve ending at a high point for a promoted guy. Also, I completely agree with Yirmiyahu. Kalish is looking more and more like a JD Drew type of guy. Which of course would be absolutely fantastic. Heck, he'd even bring a little something extra with the baserunning.
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DCRi		#25	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1190 11/28/09 2:23 PM Veteran Member	I think it still is a bit early to get a good read on Kalish. The best we have had are CEM's first hand observations and they have been encouraging. It is hard to say how much of an impact his wrist injury had on him, but it certainly was substantial. It slowed his development, particulary his power. The "tweener" tag is unfortunate. The value of a player to a specific team is greatly dependent on how he fits into the rest of the lineup. If a team has a masher or two at positions that normally don't have those kinds of hitters, like SS, for example, then having someone in LF or RF who isn't a masher may not be a big deal if that player has other assets like great D, OBP, etc. He still is quite young. I think his potential is very high. I don't know if he has more than Reddick, but I think the two are close. I think they both could well be regular OFs in the majors in two or three years, with a chance of being exceptional.
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Nexus		#26	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 337 11/28/09 3:28 PM	Pantera wrote: The way that you can argue this is that his 900 OPS over his last 300 PAs was driven by his last 28 ABs in which he had a 400+ BABIP. In July and August he had an .860 OPS. Besides, performance in the second half in the minors can be misleading. Most of the best prospects are either in AAA or in the majors by the time August roles around. Plus 300 PAs isn't enough time for the league to figure out your weaknesses and attack them enough to materially effect your performance. I'm not saying that Kalish's performance, especially in the second half isn't relevant or that those that think he's not going to start in the majors are right. However I don't think that strong performance over roughly two months in the eastern league proves very much. Wait, what? You're the one pointing out Kalish's lack of power over 73 ab's in the AFL ... then coming back and saying strong performance over a half a season in the EL doesn't prove much? I don't buy the "there's no pitching left in the EL by the time he found his groove" argument. This would suggest ALL of the advanced pitchers in A+ stay in A+ and there's a massive pitching talent gap the last two months in AA. There was still plenty of premiere pitching talent in the EL throughout the 2nd half of '09. Besides, we all know Kalish didn't exactly set the world on fire through the first 150 PAs... but we saw later it was Kalish figuring out himself and the EL... not the other way around.
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Arquimedez Bozo		#27	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8837 11/28/09 3:50 PM Chris Hatfield Senior Editor & Columnist SoxProspects.com	Pantera wrote: The way that you can argue this is that his 900 OPS over his last 300 PAs was driven by his last 28 ABs in which he had a 400+ BABIP. In July and August he had an .860 OPS. Besides, performance in the second half in the minors can be misleading. Most of the best prospects are either in AAA or in the majors by the time August roles around. Plus 300 PAs isn't enough time for the league to figure out your weaknesses and attack them enough to materially effect your performance. (Note, I more or less agree with what I haven't quoted here) 1) Sure, you can argue that regarding his BABIP. You could also argue that he started out in a major slump that dragged his AA numbers down. Baseball is not a game in which every player plays to their true ability 100% of the time. There's going to be fluctuation. 2) Do you have any idea how little sense your point about promotions there makes? Players progress evenly up the ladder no matter what time of year it is. Why would "most of the best prospects" be in AAA or the Majors by August? Using Project Prospect's top pitching prospects (since that's what's out at this point), Drabek and Mejia two of the top 18 pitching prospects in the game, were in the Eastern League at that point last year (and it's really top 16 since Strasburg and Leake didn't play). Now, yes, there are a lot of guys on that list who were in the Bigs, but it's not like seeing Matusz twice that month would have significantly changed his numbers. I don't see how five or six guys being promoted makes a difference here. "They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some information" - legendary words from a legendary man "By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy
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Pantera		#28	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 338 11/29/09 7:49 PM	2) Do you have any idea how little sense your point about promotions there makes? I don't agree. The idea that the quality of the play at minor league levels isn't as strong in the second half isn't one that was made up by me. Keith Law consistantly makes reference to it in his chats. It makes perfect sense too. As time goes on, the stronger players in any given league are advanced, not necessarilly because they have gotten better but because injuries and lack of effectiveness of major league players requires that players be advanced. It follows then that as time goes on, the quality of play at specific minor league levels must be worse because so many players are advanced by necessity as opposed to merrit. To flesh this out lets use a specific example. In the second half of the year, Clay Buchholz was placed into the Red Sox rotation due to any injury to Tim Wakefield, a major league pitcher. If the idea I postulated "made little sense", the Buchholz's performance would have been automatically replaced by a pitcher with the same quality. Obviously this didn't happen. Why would "most of the best prospects" be in AAA or the Majors by August? Using Project Prospect's top pitching prospects (since that's what's out at this point), Drabek and Mejia two of the top 18 pitching prospects in the game, were in the Eastern League at that point last year Project prospect and other prosepct sites, rank players based upon their projection as major league players and how likely they are to reach that projection. It says nothing about how advanced a player is at a given time which would be more relevant. but it's not like seeing Matusz twice that month would have significantly changed his numbers. I don't see how five or six guys being promoted makes a difference here. That's 8 PAs over a 300 PA sample and yes that can make a significant difference to a players OPS. Lets take Kalish's line for August of an .867 OPS with a .280 average and .357 OBP. That means that he reached base 107 times. Make that 99 times and his OBP drops to .333, that means before we even consider a change in power outcomes a different outcome in 8 PAs can drop or raise a players OPS by roughly 50 points. I'd call that significant. Even facing a couple of lower quality starters could easilly make a impact. Last Edited By: Pantera 11/29/09 8:07 PM. Edited 1 time.
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chavopepe2		#29	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1167 11/29/09 8:02 PM Josh Moderator SoxProspects Forum	The idea that the quality of the play at minor league levels isn't as strong in the second half isn't one that was made up by me. Keith Law consistantly makes reference to it in his chats. It makes perfect sense too. As time goes on, the stronger players in any given league are advanced, not necessarilly because they have gotten better but because injuries and lack of effectiveness of major league players requires that players be advanced. It follows then that as time goes on, the quality of play at specific minor league levels must be worse because so many players are advanced by necessity as opposed to merrit. To flesh this out lets use a specific example. In the second half of the year, Clay Buchholz was placed into the Red Sox rotation due to any injury to Tim Wakefield, a major league pitcher. If the idea I postulated "made little sense", the Buchholz's performance would have been automatically replaced by a pitcher with the same quality. Obviously this didn't happen. This is only true when looking at the minor leagues as a whole...not when looking at a specific level. In the case of AA, your statement would imply that more players are promoted from AA to AAA then from A+ to AA within a given year. I certainly can't think of any reason why this would be true. EDIT: The one point I think you have is that there are likely to be more injuries in the second half of the year then in the first half. I'm not positive that this is true, but it makes sense that more games played correlates to more injuries. I do not however think this has anything to do with the affect of promotions on the quality of pitching in a league. I also don't think the increased injuries in the second half of the year is significant enough to discount a players offensive performance. Last Edited By: chavopepe2 11/29/09 8:33 PM. Edited 1 time.
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chavopepe2		#30	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1168 11/29/09 8:30 PM Josh Moderator SoxProspects Forum	And your argument about having Matusz in the league or not is also flawed. You are assuming that he went 8 for 8 against whoever Matusz's replacement is and would have gone 0 for 8 against Matusz. That is a ridiculous assumption. It's far more likely that he would have gone 3 for 8 against Matusz replacement and 2 for 8 against Matusz...and even that is being generous. Last Edited By: chavopepe2 11/29/09 8:34 PM. Edited 1 time.
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Arquimedez Bozo		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8840 11/29/09 9:21 PM Chris Hatfield Senior Editor & Columnist SoxProspects.com	Pantera, I get what you're saying about the overall quality of the levels, and as Chavo says, that's the case when you're looking at the minor leagues from a macro level. However, I believe that an underlying assumption (correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am, I think you need to flesh out what you're saying a lot more) is that the promoted players from one level to another are, to put it one way, challenged more appropriately, and thus don't perform as well. If this is the case, shouldn't Kalish have then struggled in AA as one of those guys that got promoted from A+ to AA? It's not like he was there all season long, and then the light suddenly flicked on once there was some mass exodus of talent from the level or something. "They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some information" - legendary words from a legendary man "By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy
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bighead		#32	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 89 11/29/09 9:42 PM	flap1919 wrote: Norm in Oregon wrote: flap1919 wrote: I personally think Reddick is the tweener... You're going to have to back that up with some numbers. In no league where he's had a season with more than 150 PAs has Reddick ever slugged less than .520. So there's no question about his power potential for right field. That leaves center where he's even more qualified with the bat. We're left with his defense in center as the only issue. We already know his arm is the best in the system. So you've got to be saying that his speed and his routes aren't good enough, is that correct? Why do I have to back it up with numbers, I just PERSONALLY don't see him starting in Boston at any of the OF positions. I just feel that by the time he's ready for full time duty and a spot opens up he'll be passed by other guys in the system. The fact that they traded for Hermida this year essentially locks him in to Pawtucket this year. I like Reddick a lot I just don't love him as a prospect. I'm just not that in to Reddick, he's a pretty good prospect but I don't think he's good enough for the Sox to plan a spot for him during the offseason. He could/will certainly get a shot at some point, I just don't think it's with the Sox. You may be right about his future or lack there of with the Sox but that doesn't mean he is a tweener. I hope you are wrong about his future with the Sox though.
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flap1919		#33	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3065 11/29/09 11:00 PM	I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, that's just my opinion. His numbers in the minors were pretty good (outsie of Lancaster) and he did slg 520 and 531 in decent sample sizes, so he does have some power I just don't see the consistent hard contact continuing as he gets a steady diet of nastier and nastier off speed pitches. I don't really like his approach in that he seems like a fastball hitter that isn't patient enough to get into a fastball count. Just basing this off the times I've seen him on tv, but for the most part I have been unimpressed with his approach to more advanced pitching, I feel like he has a lot of holes in his swing and at present poor pitch recognition out of the pitchers hand. We'll see how well he adjusts this year to a full season in AAA, but I'd personally sell high right now if I could. I think he could be a pretty good major leaguer, I just wouldn't want to have to rely on him to play a major role is Boston in 2010 and maybe even 2011.
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Cem21		#34	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2485 11/30/09 11:43 AM Chris Mellen Director of Scouting SoxProspects.com	Pantera wrote: To look at the other side of the coin, what types of things could stand in the way of Kalish's development? In other words what are his offensive weaknesses? What does he have to work on in 2010 to realize his potential? Pantera- I saw this from you a page back. For what could stand in the way of Kalish's development some of it stems, to me, from what Joshv02 had mentioned about his GB% being pretty high in the past. How will he progress in continuing to add lift to his swing while also being able to mantain consistent contact rates is the question for me. Basically, not getting too jerk happy and rolling over balls. Another piece is being able to consistently drive balls in favorable counts and taking advantage of mistakes. That is a big thing for me when hitters are in the latter stages of developing towards the major leagues. One first-hand instance during the last week of the season when I saw Kalish sticks out in regards to this: He was ahead in the count during an AB and the pitcher threw him a really bad, flat fastball. About 88 MPH and right over the plate. Kalish put a nice swing on the ball and made no mistake with it, launching it to RF for a home run. I had done an interview with him right after he was promoted to AA and one of the things I asked him was about hitting with some more power during the year. Kalish mentioned that he really wasn't doing anything different and a ball he'd roll over the previous season he was now driving. That comment stuck out to me after that AB. Maybe he didn't feel like he was doing anything different, but for me he was doing something different. Kalish was recognizing pitches he could drive and also was attacking them in that manner. Part of it stems from trusting his hand once again. That's been documented. Part of it is also a maturation in approach to let it fly on balls that can be handled and a comfort zone built from seeing pitch after pitch. So, what does he have to work on in 2010 to realize his potential? I'd say it is a continuation of the approach he showed in 2009 while taking chances at lifing some more balls when he gets the ones he can handle. With his natural strength, he's capable of hitting them out of the park or hard into the gap as shown in his power numbers from 2009.
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raftsox		#35	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1432 11/30/09 2:52 PM	flap1919 wrote: Why do I have to back it up with numbers, I just PERSONALLY don't see him starting in Boston at any of the OF positions. I just feel that by the time he's ready for full time duty and a spot opens up he'll be passed by other guys in the system. The fact that they traded for Hermida this year essentially locks him in to Pawtucket this year. I like Reddick a lot I just don't love him as a prospect. I'm just not that in to Reddick, he's a pretty good prospect but I don't think he's good enough for the Sox to plan a spot for him during the offseason. He could/will certainly get a shot at some point, I just don't think it's with the Sox. Reddick needs at least a half season in Pawtucket before being in the majors full-time; he had trouble running routes against line-drives/fliners in his limited time with Boston, and still needs to work on pitch recognition. Hermida was acquired precisely because the FO does not want to retard Reddick's development by sitting him on the bench for most of the season. Theo also probably sees Hermida as a low-risk, high-reward type of player. I am speechless. ...this site is not intended to be a place where you post every ridiculous and half-formed thought that comes into your head. ... You should post less. - AMarshal2
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raftsox		#36	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1433 11/30/09 3:15 PM	Pantera wrote: To flesh this out lets use a specific example. In the second half of the year, Clay Buchholz was placed into the Red Sox rotation due to any injury to Tim Wakefield, a major league pitcher. If the idea I postulated "made little sense", the Buchholz's performance would have been automatically replaced by a pitcher with the same quality. Obviously this didn't happen. I agree with you that the elite prospects tend to be moved up a level (for various reasons) prior to the end of the season, but hanging your hat on this particular example doesn't work. On the flip side you could say that when Bryan Price was traded Casey Kelly more than filled his shoes, which is indicative of talent improving during the second half of the season (disregarding that Kelly did not pitch for the whole season & that he didn't replace Price). This is also asuming that talent depth is uniform throughout each minor league system. Buch wasn't replaced with equivalent talent because we don't have it, as you seem to get. However, Kalish didn't replace an equal talent, nor did Reddick; sometimes you lose talent as the season wears on (through injury or promotion), and sometimes you gain talent. I am speechless. ...this site is not intended to be a place where you post every ridiculous and half-formed thought that comes into your head. ... You should post less. - AMarshal2
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SoxSail		#37	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 373 11/30/09 4:42 PM	Norm in Oregon wrote: flap1919 wrote: I personally think Reddick is the tweener... In no league where he's had a season with more than 150 PAs has Reddick ever slugged less than .520. So there's no question about his power potential for right field. But Reddick has had at least moderate OBP problems, leading to an OPS that has been less than .900 everywhere except Lancaster (who can't wait till we don't have to discount those stats any more). To be honest, I see a lot of the Sox OFers as Tweeners, but not in such a negative way (can't hit for LF, can't field for CF.) I think they are players which might not fit into a conventional outfield, but that if you get three of Place, Reddick, Kalish and Westmoreland in the OF, you can afford to have a lighter hitting RF and a slower CF, because the deficiencies are made up for at the other OF positions (CF with more power and RF/LF who can cover more ground.)
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Pantera		#38	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 339 11/30/09 8:53 PM	This is only true when looking at the minor leagues as a whole...not when looking at a specific level. In the case of AA, your statement would imply that more players are promoted from AA to AAA then from A+ to AA within a given year. I certainly can't think of any reason why this would be true. The reason it would be true is that AA is used in part as a feeder to the major league roster and A+ is not. Besides, the argument that the quality of play decreases in the minors in the second half of the year is not based upon more players being promoted at one level versus another. Its based upon the best players being promoted and not being replaced with equal talent. And your argument about having Matusz in the league or not is also flawed. I think you missed the point. Matuz was just used to show how a change in the small number of outcomes could greatly change a players statistics over a 300 PA sample. It may or may not be true that a player that would 0-8 versus Matuz would go 8-8 versus another player, but it is defintely true that there are many more quality pitchers promoted than Brian Matuz. Its likely that at least the top quartile of the talent pool at each level has to be replaced by mid-season. If the level of talent were to remain the same, then you'd have to have an influx of equal talent all the way accross the board including from outside of baseball. Given the existance short-season leagues and many of the best players not even playing during their draft season, I don't see how the top quartile of talent can be replaced equally or even close.
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Pantera		#39	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 340 11/30/09 9:14 PM	From CH If this is the case, shouldn't Kalish have then struggled in AA as one of those guys that got promoted from A+ to AA? Didn't he? It's not like he was there all season long, and then the light suddenly flicked on once there was some mass exodus of talent from the level or something. It can be true that a player both improved his quality of play and had his peformance influenced by the lower qualityof play in the league. On the flip side you could say that when Bryan Price was traded Casey Kelly more than filled his shoes, which is indicative of talent improving during the second half of the season (disregarding that Kelly did not pitch for the whole season & that he didn't replace Price). Raft Kelley was done pitching by he time Bryan Price was traded so he did not fill his shoes. As I've shown it would be physically impossible to replace the top quartile of talent at each level with an equal level of talent. Nexus- Wait, what? You're the one pointing out Kalish's lack of power over 73 ab's in the AFL ... then coming back and saying strong performance over a half a season in the EL doesn't prove much? The 73 ABs were against a higher level of talent. However I would agree that the 73 ABs don't prove that he's a "tweener". They could be a reason for concern, or they could have just been the product of a fatigued player who played his heart out all year long. Nexus I think you are misunderstanding my argument a little bit. I am not arguing that Kalish isn't going to be a good player. I'm just arguing that he has work to do to realize his potential as many other posters have noted. You on the other hand seem to be arguing that on the basis of 300 PAs prove not only that he's an everyday corner player, but that anyone who thinks differnetly is a baseball imbicile. I like Ryan Kalish, but I think that pencilling him in for JD Drew's career based on the available evidence is extreme.
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Pantera		#40	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 341 11/30/09 9:19 PM	Cem21 wrote: Pantera wrote: To look at the other side of the coin, what types of things could stand in the way of Kalish's development? In other words what are his offensive weaknesses? What does he have to work on in 2010 to realize his potential? Pantera- I saw this from you a page back. For what could stand in the way of Kalish's development some of it stems, to me, from what Joshv02 had mentioned about his GB% being pretty high in the past. How will he progress in continuing to add lift to his swing while also being able to mantain consistent contact rates is the question for me. Basically, not getting too jerk happy and rolling over balls. Another piece is being able to consistently drive balls in favorable counts and taking advantage of mistakes. That is a big thing for me when hitters are in the latter stages of developing towards the major leagues. One first-hand instance during the last week of the season when I saw Kalish sticks out in regards to this: He was ahead in the count during an AB and the pitcher threw him a really bad, flat fastball. About 88 MPH and right over the plate. Kalish put a nice swing on the ball and made no mistake with it, launching it to RF for a home run. I had done an interview with him right after he was promoted to AA and one of the things I asked him was about hitting with some more power during the year. Kalish mentioned that he really wasn't doing anything different and a ball he'd roll over the previous season he was now driving. That comment stuck out to me after that AB. Maybe he didn't feel like he was doing anything different, but for me he was doing something different. Kalish was recognizing pitches he could drive and also was attacking them in that manner. Part of it stems from trusting his hand once again. That's been documented. Part of it is also a maturation in approach to let it fly on balls that can be handled and a comfort zone built from seeing pitch after pitch. So, what does he have to work on in 2010 to realize his potential? I'd say it is a continuation of the approach he showed in 2009 while taking chances at lifing some more balls when he gets the ones he can handle. With his natural strength, he's capable of hitting them out of the park or hard into the gap as shown in his power numbers from 2009. Great stuff Cem thanks as always. You mentioned an AB where Kalish hit a mistake pitch into the upper deck. Its nice to know that he's going to crush mistakes. How did he look against higher quality fastballs? Did that improve as the season went on and his confidence in his hand returned?
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Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?