Is Ryan Kalish a tweener? in SoxProspects Discussion Forum

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Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?

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Pantera	Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?		Lead	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 331 11/27/09 7:04 PM	Tags : None I thought this would be a great topic of discussion. Perhaps some of the more veteran members of this board can shed some light on this. Every report I've ever read on Ryan Kalish since he was drafted has included the following phrase. "Some scouts see him as a tweener". For those who may not know, a "tweener" is a player who isn't a good enough fielder to play CF and not enough hitting ability to play a corner position. Essentially such a player is a fourth OF. I have to assume that this concern was a reason why Kalish lasted so long the year he was drafted. $600,000, Kalish's bonus award, is a lot of money to spend on a player you essentially project as a backup. Given his bonus, I think its a safe assumption that the Red Sox thought he projected to be much more than a fourth OF. So far, it appears that there are good arguments for both sides at least in the number. Kalish hasn't shown the type of power that would make him a prime right or left fielder in Boston. Yet he has shown strong plate discipline and the ability to improve when he's challenged. Often these can be the traits of a player who develops a power stroke in his mid 20s. So how's about it scouts? Stat heads? And even friends of Kalish's if you are around? Will Ryan Kalish be a "tweener" in the majors? Why or why not?
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USG		#1	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 10 11/27/09 7:31 PM	I think Kalish challenged that perception this year. He posted good power numbers in Salem, and only had a drop off in Portland due to the predictable post-promotion slump. Basically, I almost feel as if this topic is a year late.
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Nexus		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 11/27/09 8:09 PM Forum Moderator	USG wrote: I think Kalish challenged that perception this year. He posted good power numbers in Salem, and only had a drop off in Portland due to the predictable post-promotion slump. Basically, I almost feel as if this topic is a year late. Not a mod and don't want to tell people how to post, but please research the player before making these kind of comments. Kalish was one of the best offensive players in the EL after the all-star break (after July 1st, really)... at age 21 coming off a fairly serious injury that takes time to heal. And that's my answer as of today. No, he's not a tweener. He's shown flashes of being every bit as talented as a top notch RFer (assuming that is where is makes it). And Laurila's recent BP interview making him out to be a guy who "gets it" has me even more excited.
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Pantera		#3	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 333 11/27/09 8:27 PM	Not a mod and don't want to tell people how to post, but please research the player before making these kind of comments. Kalish was one of the best offensive players in the EL after the all-star break (after July 1st, really)... at age 21 coming off a fairly serious injury that takes time to heal. No you aren't a mod This was written on November 16th of this year. Ryan Kalish, Boston Red Sox: Kalish does a little bit of everything on the field and understands the strike zone well. While some scouts view him as a bit of a tweener, he does have the potential to be a starting outfielder in the big leagues. http://insider.espn.go.co...0692&name=grey_jason The second half of a season for minor league performance can often be misleading. Each leagues best prospects have often graduated in the second half. Plus although it was a small sample size, Kalish did not show a whole lot of power in the Arizona Fall League. You can certainly make the argument that this was an encouraging year for Kalish, but to argue that Kalish's future isn't even an open question seems to refute the brief scouting report posted above. The existance of this scouting report certainly makes the accusation that research wasn't done unwarrented. Maybe you should leave moderating to the moderators. Last Edited By: Pantera 11/27/09 8:31 PM. Edited 2 times.
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flap1919		#4	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3049 11/27/09 8:33 PM	I personally think Reddick is the tweener, I'm a bit higher on Kalish because I think he can stick in CF or add power as he gets bigger and slows down a bit. He appears to be fairly jacked at the moment so I think he has the potential to be at least a 20-30 HR guy with above average RF defefense at Fenway. If they think he's got the goods he could slot in nicely as Drew's replacement in 2012. His lack of power early on in his pro career can also be attributed to his wrist injury and surgery.
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chavopepe2		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1164 11/27/09 8:44 PM Senior Forum Moderator	Nexus - USG said nothing that contradicts what you wrote. He simply stated that Kalish had a post promotion slump, which is true. He recovered to have a great second half in Portland, but he definitely had a post promotion slump. In regards to defense, Reddick is usually regarded as the player that is more likely to stay in center. I tend to think Kalish will be able to play a passable centerfield, but I don't think that issue has been completely resolved yet. I do think Kalish will hit enough to be a starting caliber player at either a corner spot or in CF, though clearly sticking in CF is critical to taking his value to the next level.
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Cem21		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2482 11/27/09 8:58 PM Chris Mellen Director of Scouting SoxProspects.com	Kalish's big need in terms of hitting for power was adding some lift to his swing. With Portland last season, there was some improvement in that aspect and it definetly showed when you saw him. He'll still slash at some balls, but I saw him hit a couple of home runs where he got some nice lift and extension on the ball. He's got good strength and is pretty filled out, especially his forearms. The strength is definetly there for him to hit home runs at the big league level. I don't see him sticking in CF at the big league level as a starter. His arm plays up nicely in the corners and he'll have good range in either LF/RF. I see him as a guy who has a good chance to be a major league starter down the line and this season was a good development year for him.
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FenwayTheHardWay		#7	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1665 11/27/09 9:26 PM Veteran Member	flap1919 wrote: I personally think Reddick is the tweener, I'm a bit higher on Kalish because I think he can stick in CF or add power as he gets bigger and slows down a bit. That would imply that Reddick can't handle center, and most experts seem to think he can... is there a reason you believe otherwise? "Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the cheese."- Buck Martinez
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flap1919		#8	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3053 11/27/09 9:37 PM	I don't personally think either Kalish or Reddick is ever the starting CF in Boston. Being able to handle CF and being able to play there 150 times a year are two totally different things. I just personally see Reddick as more of a 4th OF in Boston. There have been plenty of players that came up through the minors as CFers and really had no chance of sticking there. I don't think Reddick has the bat in the end to be a starter in Boston. Between the two I like Kalish to take over for Drew in 2012, just a gut feeling really at the moment. I think there are better defensive CFers in the minors than either of them if/when Ellsbury ends up somewhere else or gets seriously injured in a few years.
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Norm in Oregon		#9	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1008 11/27/09 10:10 PM Veteran Member	flap1919 wrote: I personally think Reddick is the tweener... You're going to have to back that up with some numbers. In no league where he's had a season with more than 150 PAs has Reddick ever slugged less than .520. So there's no question about his power potential for right field. That leaves center where he's even more qualified with the bat. We're left with his defense in center as the only issue. We already know his arm is the best in the system. So you've got to be saying that his speed and his routes aren't good enough, is that correct? Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass
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Arquimedez Bozo		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8834 11/27/09 10:31 PM Chris Hatfield Executive Editor SoxProspects.com	Pantera wrote: I have to assume that this concern was a reason why Kalish lasted so long the year he was drafted. I know this isn't quite to do with the current discussion, but wanted to address this: Kalish was drafted as "late" (9th round) as he was because he was considered unsignable, with a strong commitment to UVA (Go Wahoos). He was BA's #95 draft prospect. This from Gammons in 2006: Boston took some high school players considered to be nearly unsignable, like New Jersey OF Ryan Kalish, Texas LHP Brandon Belt, Florida slugger Matt LaPorta and California 1B Lars Anderson with the intention of signing a couple of them. As to the "tweener" label, a lot of that projection is because Kalish is filling out, and if it continues too much, he'll become too big to play CF regularly. I also found this quote from Temple in the 2006 Draft thread that was priceless: Wow, if we sign him, he is immediately my favorite prospect. An atheist from New Jersey? He's practically me, but really good at baseball. Here were the Sox's picks from the BA top 200 to give you some reference: 1. Jason Place, OF - #47 1. Daniel Bard, RHP - #15 1S. Kris Johnson, LHP - #45 1S. Caleb Clay, RHP - #90 2. Justin Masterson, RHP - #24 3. Aaron Bates, 1B - #99 9. Ryan Kalish, OF - #95 11. Brandon Belt, LHP - #67 13. Jordan Craft, RHP - #119 14. Matt Laporta, 1B - #38 16. Ty Weeden, C - #196 18. Lars Anderson, 1B - #41 28. Carmine Giardina, LHP - #107 "They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some information" - legendary words from a legendary man "By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy My Twitter / SoxProspects Twitter / SoxProspects on Facebook
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jdb		#11	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 298 11/27/09 11:18 PM	This is a good question in my opinion. Is he a CF who could play stellar D, no. Is he the prototypical RF that you can count on for 30+ homers and 100+ RBI's probably not, but baseball has change in the post steriod era and I think he will make a fine corner OF. He has a great approach with 20-30 HR potential. Theo was one if you look back saw after our 2004 WS that baseball was changing. He saw that and got OF's like Reddick and Kalish in our system. He projects as above average in the field and a guy with decent power and I wish we had more like him.
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Pantera		#12	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 334 11/28/09 12:31 AM	I know this isn't quite to do with the current discussion, but wanted to address this: Kalish was drafted as "late" (9th round) as he was because he was considered unsignable, with a strong commitment to UVA (Go Wahoos). He was BA's #95 draft prospect. This from Gammons in 2006 It could be that both are true. As you well know there are different degrees of "unisignable". Virtually everyone will sign for a given amount of bonus money. It could be that what Kalish was thought to be asking for at the time was more than what some evaluators thought he was worth given that they thought he was a "tweener". That would make him "unsignable." A player who is ranked #95 by BA is probably going to have some scouts that like him and some that don't.
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Pantera		#13	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 335 11/28/09 12:41 AM	Cem21 wrote: Kalish's big need in terms of hitting for power was adding some lift to his swing. With Portland last season, there was some improvement in that aspect and it definetly showed when you saw him. He'll still slash at some balls, but I saw him hit a couple of home runs where he got some nice lift and extension on the ball. He's got good strength and is pretty filled out, especially his forearms. The strength is definetly there for him to hit home runs at the big league level. I don't see him sticking in CF at the big league level as a starter. His arm plays up nicely in the corners and he'll have good range in either LF/RF. I see him as a guy who has a good chance to be a major league starter down the line and this season was a good development year for him. This is an excellent answer and good step towards what I was looking for. To look at the other side of the coin, what types of things could stand in the way of Kalish's development? In other words what are his offensive weaknesses? What does he have to work on in 2010 to realize his potential?
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Nexus		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 336 11/28/09 2:31 AM Forum Moderator	Josh - You're right. After rereading his post comparing to my response, I should not have said that. USG - my apologies. I read it, assumed you had looked at his '09 OPS at AA, compared it to his short stint at Salem, and made your post-promotion slump conclusion. His May was downright brutal and definitely falls in the "post-promotion slump" category. Obviously, my point was his 2nd half in AA actually outperformed his time in Salem... unlike Navarro who was lost at the plate in AA this year. With Kalish, all I saw was a 21 year old who, after a disasterous May and "ehh" June, performed at a level offensively that rivaled only Santana in Akron. Again, this after coming back from injury and adjusting to advanced pitching. Maybe it was luck... maybe it was the EL trying to figure this guy out... Regardless, the important numbers improved across the board throughout the year. I don't know how you could argue a kid well ahead of the age curve in AA and posting a 900+ OPS in his last 300 PAs as a tweener. Probably the same people who had similar things to say about Pedroia, Youk, and Lester.
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Boomerangs		#15	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 35 11/28/09 3:54 AM	With Kalish and Reddick both being LH I wouldn't be surprised if one of them were traded this winter. Getting on point, Kalish is still young and he did have the severe injury his first year which set him back some. He hasn't been a rocket to the top of the system but he certainly started off strong, had the injury holding him back some and probably retarding his power development a little. He has been finishing strong recently. Overall his development appears to have gone well. He had a high strikeout percentage in the AFL though didn't he. Is he trying to hit HR, maybe trying too hard to hit HR. Being a power hitter appears to be something he is working on. It would seem that he understands it is important for him to truly make it in the bigs. His body type does lend itself to some power and I think he's a corner guy if anything. I think he's going to make it and it wouldn't surprise me if he starts off strong next year. He seems to be maturing well and maybe just now truly emerging from his injury fully healed.
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TheGoldenGreek33		#16	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3300 11/28/09 3:59 AM Veteran Member	Cem21 wrote: I don't see him sticking in CF at the big league level as a starter. His arm plays up nicely in the corners and he'll have good range in either LF/RF. I don't mean to single you out, merely stating this to stir the pot, I guess. I read rave reviews on Kalish's route-taking ability by KG, Badler, and Project Prospect on twitter. In fact, I remember asking KG in the Sox Top 11 if, because of this, he can stay in CF, and he agreed.
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flap1919		#17	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3055 11/28/09 10:38 AM	Norm in Oregon wrote: flap1919 wrote: I personally think Reddick is the tweener... You're going to have to back that up with some numbers. In no league where he's had a season with more than 150 PAs has Reddick ever slugged less than .520. So there's no question about his power potential for right field. That leaves center where he's even more qualified with the bat. We're left with his defense in center as the only issue. We already know his arm is the best in the system. So you've got to be saying that his speed and his routes aren't good enough, is that correct? Why do I have to back it up with numbers, I just PERSONALLY don't see him starting in Boston at any of the OF positions. I just feel that by the time he's ready for full time duty and a spot opens up he'll be passed by other guys in the system. The fact that they traded for Hermida this year essentially locks him in to Pawtucket this year. I like Reddick a lot I just don't love him as a prospect. I'm just not that in to Reddick, he's a pretty good prospect but I don't think he's good enough for the Sox to plan a spot for him during the offseason. He could/will certainly get a shot at some point, I just don't think it's with the Sox.
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Yirmiyahu		#18	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 628 11/28/09 11:15 AM	This whole discussion reminds me a bit of J.D. Drew. Batting average around .280, good OBP, strong arm, questions around whether he's good enough to play center, but plays great defense in RF, won't hit 30 HR's or 100 RBI's... Sounds good to me.
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Cem21		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2483 11/28/09 11:21 AM Chris Mellen Director of Scouting SoxProspects.com	TheGoldenGreek33 wrote: I don't mean to single you out, merely stating this to stir the pot, I guess. I read rave reviews on Kalish's route-taking ability by KG, Badler, and Project Prospect on twitter. In fact, I remember asking KG in the Sox Top 11 if, because of this, he can stay in CF, and he agreed. I can't speak for what those guys have seen or who they have talked to, but when I've seen him play CF in person it looks like he is better suited for a corner spot. He's made some bad reads and isn't overly smooth. I've also talked to a couple of scouts who share the same view and feel that he plays up better as a corner. I've read those reports from those guys, but it hasn't jived with what I have seen or some of the people I talk to who have scouted Kalish this past season for whatever reason.
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joshv02		#20	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 213 11/28/09 11:23 AM	What disappointed me about Kalish in prior years was that his GB% was so high - but, as cem points out with first hand observation and as the numbers back up, he appears to have started to hit the ball more and more in the air as the year went on. Assuming that this is a real marker for the future, he could develop significant power as he just looks like a great athlete. If he develops real power, then he isn't much of a tweener as he is a corner OFer with good (but not other worldly) power.
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Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?

Is Ryan Kalish a tweener?