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buffs44444 |
#501 | |||
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Given that his trade value is so low right now (due to injuries, etc) and that the FO has already said Lowrie won't be relied upon until he can stay
healthy, I don't see any chance Jed is pegged for anything other than a bench role on this club heading into ST. The one exception to that would be if SD
or Arizona targeted Lowrie due to their familiarity with him when Hoyer and Byrnes were members of the Boston FO. Otherwise, he's a Red Sox bench guy
until he proves himself to be more than that.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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TokenWilliams |
#502 | |||
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wouldn't it make more sense to start Lowrie in AAA than to put him on the bench? I'd rather see him get more AB's since he hasn't been playing
much... Iglesia won't start in AAA, at least I doubt it. Having Jed in AAA, unless he wins the job outright in spring training would be my choice.
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WC Sox Fan |
#503 | |||
joshv02 wrote:I understand that defensive metrics confuse alot of people. And you are welcome to your opinion regarding Jed Lowrie or any other player. But making up potential defensive statistics which you appear to not understand is pretty rediculous. I'm sorry if my response seems overly critical, but defensive metrics aren't as complicated as many people make them out to be. Also, SSS in regards to defensive metrics are relative to a player's position. You see this frequently when speaking of outfielders because they have very few opportunities during a game to make plays. Shortstops, on the other hand, have many more opportunities. Using data for the 24 qualifying shortstops in 2006 compiled from both the hardballtimes and fangraphs I found that these players had 15,161 plate appearances. The same players had 9,879 "total chances" at fielding a ball. A "total chance" qualifies as a ball hit through the fielder's zone + a ball outside of the fielder's zone on which they made a play. There is little subjectivity to these statistics and the very large sample size cancels out any which may appear. Take "total chances" divided by "plate appearances" and you find that a SS has an opportunity to make a defensive play 65% as frequently as they have an opportunity to make a play offensively (not including baserunning). Or 1.53 times as many opportunities offensive as they do defensively. You can take the 3,577 games played by these 24 shortstops, multiply this by 9 (for innings) to get 32,193 (innings played defensively). Then divide 32,193 by 9,879 (total chances) to get .307 (chances per inning played). .307 times 549.67 equals 169. These numbers are skewed by three factors: some shortstops may have play a handful of innings at other positions, not all games last for 9 full innings, and some players likely left games early. Each of these factors skew the numbers downward, meaning that the .307 (chances per inning played) is likely quite a bit higher, resulting in a larger number than "169". So essentially his 549.2 innings represents 169+ plate appearances (I'm not even going to bother explaining why using at-bats is a bad idea). Observationally: Jed Lowrie has average to below average arm strength and speed. However, he positions himself well and reacts very quickly to a ball hit in play. This results in more good plays appearing routine and fewer webgems. The truth usually rests between "observational opinion" and statistics taken from a small sample size, as is likely with Lowrie. I was going to get into basing a range of possible numbers off of a small sample size using a 95% accuracy test. But as my post is far longer than most would like already, I will leave it for a later post unless someone else would like to make a post for me. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=490&type=0&season=2006&month=0 http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-is-zone-rating/ |
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AMarshal2 |
#504 | |||
WC Sox Fan wrote: You have got to be kidding me. Not only is this post incredibly snarky and condescending, but you put more weight behind his point. Speaking as a moderator, you need to watch your tone. This post is not what we are looking for on this board. Speaking as a poster, you go through a lot of work to show that instead of 50-100 ABs, Lowrie probably has a 169+ plate appearances sample at SS. Why would you do that? How is this relevant? You have just said, "it's not a meaninglessly small sample, it's a meaninglessly small sample, you moron." The sample, be it 50-100 AB's or 169 PA's, is entirely too small to draw any meaningful conclusions about Jed Lowrie's defense at SS. Unlike measuring a player's offensive contributions, UZR is not a very accurate statistic to begin with and needs very large samples (as Josh said, multiple seasons) before I will trust that it is even directionally accurate. Using a 95% accuracy test based on a strong UZR over 169 PA's is not going to pass anybody's smell test.
aminahyaquin: Alou is a 37 year old 7 time MVP with a .347 lifetime batting average and a world of hustle. he
can golden glove field in his sleep.
tGG: Alou is actually 42, has never won an MVP, has a .303 lifetime batting average, and is mediocre at best in the field. joshv02: But, other than that, you're wrong.
Last Edited By: AMarshal2 11/02/09 10:51 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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joshv02 |
#505 | |||
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Because you need multiple seasons of defensive data to get the same level of r2 (generally 3, but 2 may be OK for middle infielders b/c of the increase in
chances/9), you should basically think of one inning of UZR data having about 1/2 a PA of predictive value. I've written about it here and its been written
about consistently on The Book's blog, so I assume b/c you are into UZR you would be interested in that wealth of discussion. (FWIW: If you'd like to
read the older discussions of UZR the best discussions were on FanHome's old sabermetric message board way back in the day, but the discussions on BTF in
the beginning were interesting, and the discussion on The Book's blog are technical and interesting. MGL's chat at the same time as Dewan's SoSH
chat was good, though MGL as always loves to write in snark. The better discussions were also when DRA was introduced and compared/contrasted with UZR, but
that must be at least 6 years ago now.)
To put it this way: if you want to predict someone's UZR for 2010, you really need two to three years of data for the equivalent of ONE year of OPS data. Therefore, while Jed's career fielding data (spread over two years), is the equivalent of about 1/3 of a season, that has the predictive value of about 1/6 of a season's worth of PAs. This discussion has been had over at The Book's blog repeatedly. I use a lot of shorthand as I try to make points, so I deserve it when people snarkily tell me that I should use PAs rather the ABs or otherwise. So, I invite it I suppose. I should do a better job describing my point. My basic point is this: Jed's UZR data in about 1/3 of as season spread over two years is virtually worthless in predicting his next year's UZR. And, as the author of the fielding bible said recently (check the SoSH board, I'm happy to provide a link if you'd like), you should probably use defensive statistics for no more 60% of your defensive assessment even if you have good data. Therefore, I'd come close to ignoring Jed's data completely. But, I'd certainly, under no circumstances, say that because Jed's sample size is small, it nonetheless is directionally useful. Either the data set is small and therefore worthless, or its of appropriate size and therefore worthy. To put it in terms of math: your error band covers way too much ground (in looking at predicted 2010 UZR's) and would likely be -50 to +50, or -5 to +5 if you regress to league average enough. In all events, he isn't significantly above average or plus according to UZR properly understood. And observationally, I think we agree: he looks about average when you look at the full package. I don't think his 2010 expected defensive contribution should be much better then average until there is more data. (FWIW, again, I find minor league defensive statistics to be worthless for now until I can see their predictive merit. I find them fun but pointless frivolities. So any data from Jed's minor league career is particularly pointless. We can discuss why if you'd like.) |
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Sibby Sisti |
#506 | |||
buffs44444 wrote:Not to nitpick, but Josh Byrnes was already at AZ when Lowrie signed his contract with Boston and was assigned to Lowell. I agree with some others that, if he can't grab the starting ss job in ST, he should go to AAA to get his groove back after missing so much time. |
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buffs44444 |
#507 | |||
Sibby Sisti wrote:Lowrie was drafted in June 2005. Byrnes took over in Arizona in October 2005, after Lowrie completed his first year in Lowell. Byrnes link Lowrie link Please let me know if that information is different from what you're seeing?
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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Sibby Sisti |
#508 | |||
buffs44444 wrote:You got me on that one. Guess Lowrie's short season in Lowell made a impression on Byrnes. |
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dirtyredsox |
I would like to see the sox get Carlos Lee | #509 | ||
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I think he would do well here. Houston needs to rid themselves of some payroll. I am not sure what they would take for him, but he would be a good add in my
opinion.
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SoxSail |
#510 | |||
dirtyredsox wrote:Welcome dirtyRS. I'd love to hear more about why they need to shed payroll, and how you think he'd fit into our lineup. |
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Sibby Sisti |
#511 | |||
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Welcome aboard, dirtyredsox.
Carlos Lee is due 18.5 mil for the next three years and has a NT clause for 2010 and a limited ntc for the last two years. |
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buffs44444 |
#512 | |||
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Lee has never been worth the huge contract
that he got, but the only way I could see entertaining him as an acquisition is if the Stros ate some of his money. Bay seems like a better alternative to
Lee.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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SeaDog19 |
#513 | |||
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Carlos Lee would make sense if a) the Astros would take Mike Lowell back in the trade, b) Lee was willing to waive his NTC and c) the Sox FO believes that Lee
can continue to hit for the next three seasons.
The Astros just resigned Geoff Blum, so they are less likely to want anything to do with Mike Lowell. And since Lee owns a huge cattle ranch just outside of Houston, I don't see him as an eager candidate to waive his NTC and leave town. I happen to think Lee will continue to hit, but the first tow factors appear to make a trade unlikely. |
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buffs44444 |
#514 | |||
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Touching on a few topics previously discussed:
mlb.com
Assuming that Gonzalez and Soriano will get better offers to close elsewhere, the Braves are expected to continue to gauge the cost of signing veteran closer Billy Wagner, who posted a 1.72 ERA in the 17 appearances that he made after returning from Tommy John elbow reconstruction surgery in late August.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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DCRi |
#515 | |||
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Would anyone take Lowe's contract at this point, especially an AL team?
How likely is Vasquez to repeat the season he had? |
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eyse |
Vazquez | #516 | ||
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Rookie
Posts: 8 11/03/09 5:26 PM |
How likely is Vasquez to repeat the season he had?DCRi - I look Vazquez's career numbers and see a model of consistency. In each of his past 10 seasons, except his off year with the Yanks, he has pitched 200 or more innings and been in the neighborhood of 200 K's (non-yankee low, 179 in 2002). He seems to be as close to a guarantee for 32 starts as you can find. Nothing about his stats suggest that he was unusually lucky last year. Although next year will be his age 33 season, fangraphs.com has his WAR climbing the past five years (3.6, 4.8, 5.1, 4.8, 6.6), and I see no particular reason to believe hes about to fall off now. As a fan of his who sat behind the plate and saw him throw a CG 3hit in 2003, I would love to see him on the Red Sox for the right price. However I will concede the fact that his one down year came in the AL East could be some cause for concern (although it did nothing but further endear him to me, and shorten his Yankee tenure. HUZAAH!) |
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Sibby Sisti |
#517 | |||
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The Red Sox should definitely offer Wagner arbitration, assuming they can't agree on a 2010 contract. This way the Braves would be on the hook for a first
round choice, since Wags is a Type A. The question is, will he retire? If he wants to get his 400 saves he has some options.
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buffs44444 |
#518 | |||
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Over at BP.com, Joe Sheehan on the Holliday/Bay discussion:
Steve (NJ): Do you think the Mets are going to pay Holliday or Bay too much for too long? Which would you pursue, if either?
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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jdb |
#519 | |||
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If both of these guys fall thru for us how much would you all give up for Willingham? I could live with him in LF. We would have to get a quality 4th OF with
him and Drew but that should be easier than finding a starting LF. Any ideas. Im ready for the series to end so we can actually talk about rumors not made up
by us.
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AMarshal2 |
#520 | |||
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Neither is Jason Bay. I've maintained for a long time that UZR does not know how to handle Fenway. Manny's numbers were always entirely too bad to be
believed and Bay's looked depressed too. He's below average, but he's not a DH.
I'm not sure I understand the thread entirely, but Eric Van seems to have found a flaw in UZR over at SoSH with respect to park factors. edit: others disagree with him, FWIW.
aminahyaquin: Alou is a 37 year old 7 time MVP with a .347 lifetime batting average and a world of hustle. he
can golden glove field in his sleep.
tGG: Alou is actually 42, has never won an MVP, has a .303 lifetime batting average, and is mediocre at best in the field. joshv02: But, other than that, you're wrong.
Last Edited By: AMarshal2 11/03/09 11:00 PM.
Edited 1 time.
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