Jim Palmer likes Delcarmen a lot. Several times during this season when the Sox were playing the Orioles and Delcarmen pitched, Palmer spoke highly of his
stuff. However, Palmer thinks Delcarmen might be more effective as a starter than as a reliever because he has "starter stuff." He also said that
there were people on other teams who shared that opinion. But he also said that Delcarmen could be a closer for some other teams. Apparently that was what the
Nationals had in mind when they were trying to get him.
Delcarmen did begin his minor league career with the Sox as a starter and was only converted to relief after his TJ surgery.
It seemed to me, watching Delcarmen this year, that he was tending to overthrow and consequently losing some command. Much of the time a reliever is under more
immediate pressure than is a starter, and does not have the opportunity to develop his pitches the way a starter can. If one pitch is not working right a
reliever cannot work on it in the game and he may resort to just relying on one of his pitches.
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The Red Sox 2009-2010 Offseason Discussion Thread
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 DCRi |
#341 | |||
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Posts: 1153 10/23/09 8:02 AM Veteran Member |
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ancientsoxfogey |
#342 | |||
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Posts: 4375 10/23/09 9:21 AM Veteran Member |
I suppose at some point, if the Sox get tired of his inconsistency, they could try him as a starter. But the problem is, would they try it at the major league
level during a season, or convert him in ST some year and trust him with a place in the rotation, after he hasn't started in several years? The Sox
don't usually take pot luck with pitchers that way.
The only way I could see MDC as a starter with the Sox at the major league level from the get-go is if sudden injury issues forced the Sox to start somebody on short notice, he happened to be the guy, he did a good enough job that he deserved another start, and the injury situation lasted long enough to allow him to establish himself in a starting role. If the Sox DID decide to covert him to a starter one year, they'd probably do it in ST and let him pitch some at AAA to prove himself before bringing him up. In reality, MDC's most likely path to a starting role is with another organization. |
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jamalisamra20 |
#343 | |||
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Posts: 626 10/23/09 9:37 AM |
buffs44444 wrote:I don't see what is so far fetched about my statement. All I said was the guy isn't a shiny chip. I mean, just use your head: what team is going to give up anything of value for a guy who is an eighth inning guy at best (and didn't pitch like one this past season) and has fought bouts of consistency (two of his three 50+ IP seasons he's had a WHIP over 1.5) his entire career?? Teams just don't give up value for inconsistent relievers because of the volatile nature of relievers. Look at Ramon Ramirez. Following his 2008 season saw him post an ERA+ of 162 and all the Royals could get for him was an overpriced fourth outfielder whose only two tools were range and speed. Delcarmen's coming off a year which saw him post an ERA+ of 105, continuing a trend which has seen his ERA plus fall each decline from season-to-season over the past three seasons. He was so bad at the end of the season that the Sox chose Paul Byrd over him for the postseason roster. He'd maybe fetch us an Eric Byrnes (mainly because of the salary), and any player traded straight up for Eric Byrnes is hardly someone who I would classify as a shiny chip. One final thing: I never said "we're teetering on the edge of dumping him." I actually advocated we should keep him this season because his value is so low we won't get anything near equal value for him. If he still isn't cutting it by the end of next season, then you have to think about cutting the cord on him (just like you would any reliever who hasn't been hacking it for two seasons). If you are going to call someone out, make sure you have the facts straight. |
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amfox1 |
#344 | |||
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Posts: 6278 10/23/09 10:11 AM
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DCRi wrote:But that's not the whole story on Delcarmen. He was converted to relief because his fastball played up as a reliever and his did not have consistent control of more than two pitches. He was mediocre as a starter, and I would not expect him to ever start in the Red Sox organization. I have been watching this debate over the past couple of days, and I have to say that I fall closer to the jamlisamra20 camp - Delcarmen is a decent bullpen piece but he is expendable in the right trade and is not going to bring back a starting player. |
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jdb |
#345 | |||
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Posts: 216 10/23/09 10:29 AM |
I think MDC has value but not as much as he did pre all star break. I could see a team like the Brewers having interest and maybe dangling Hardy in return. He could take over for Hoffman after next season if that were the case. With that being said I dont think I would make that trade. |
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Guidas |
#346 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 4 10/23/09 12:07 PM |
Personally, I'd trade MDC for JJ Hardy in a heartbeat - unless I thought Hardy might be non-tendered because of the $5 mil he is owed. I think if Manny
goes to the National League he becomes much more effective, and there would be zero pressure for him in a mid-market city.
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buffs44444 |
#347 | |||
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Posts: 1217 10/23/09 2:12 PM
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jamalisamra20 wrote: Ok, first and foremost, there was no "call out" there. Good intellectual debates are appreciated, especially those providing the ability to learn something new or even to get proven wrong (which, indirectly, implies learning something new). In this case, I think we still differ in opinion, but I don't think either of us is being called out or proven wrong. I agree with you wholeheartedly on the volatile nature of relievers in general, as well as the effect that variability can have on trade value. While I don't agree that Byrnes would be a comparable trade candidate (Byrnes had a nice second half OPS of around .850 but still nowhere near worth $11M), Delcarmen being a reliever and subject to said variances means he's not going to fetch as much as a young starter in most cases. Does that mean rival GM's are going to look at 26IP in the second half and conclude that Manny is garbage? My belief is, if the Red Sox front office considers dealing Manny, that will not be the case. That being said, I think the main point of contention I had with your post was the depiction of him as someone near bottom in value based on seemingly one bad second half. I can't find ERA+ broken down for pre-ASB right now, but his stats from the first half of 2009 are pretty damn close to his 2008 numbers. Also bear in mind that the downward trend in his ERA+ you're seeing from 2007 to 2009 is affected by a career year in 2007 (his 2007 ERA+ was close to Mariano Rivera's 2009 ERA+ and Manny is obviously no Mo). So given this, I don't think it's anywhere near a possibility that he's being considered as a reliever who, as we both seem to agree happens with relievers, had anything other than a sh*tty second half. More likely he returns to his 2008 form and, again it's just my belief, that most GM's would realize that when considering him as an acquisition in a deal.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
"Be the change you want to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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DCRi |
#348 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1154 10/23/09 4:14 PM Veteran Member |
There are a number of teams where Delcarmen would be one of the team's best RPs, including the Orioles and the Nationals. So I think there is a market for
him, but certainly he is not going to bring a first-line player. But a package that included him might. I think his bad second half was mostly due to command
issues. He still was throwing in the high 90s. He was quoted as saying that he had a mechanical problem with his delivery that he was trying to fix, but he
apparently never did. His walk rate was quite a bit higher than his career average. If the problem was due to a mechanical flaw then it problem is fixable and
he could come back next year with a much better season.
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WC Sox Fan |
#349 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 52 10/24/09 2:00 AM |
DCRi wrote:You say that he was still throwing in the high 90s. But the last 7 or 8 times I saw him last year he was topping out at 94, and sitting around 92-93, which is quite low for him. I don't get every game, so it may be due to sample size. Can anyone who saw the majority of the games, with reliable radar guns, confirm his end-of-year velocity? I think he does have starter "stuff" with his fastball/curveball and occasional changeup. But in general he has never been extremely consistent, nor does he have the best command. I've notice him "fly open" early and overthrow pitches (up-and-in to righties) far too frequently over the years. I believe this may hurt him more as a starter, as it would be more difficult to replace him in the first couple of innings when he is having an off night. I really like having a homegrown Bostonian on the team; and I would hate to see him go. But it seems as though other teams value him more than the Red Sox. Therefore it makes sense to explore trades, since it doesn't appear he will ever become a consistent 8th or 9th inning reliever for the Red Sox.
Last Edited By: WC Sox Fan 10/24/09 2:04 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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Brisox |
my.02 on 2010 | #350 | ||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 261 10/24/09 8:44 AM Veteran Member |
I am actually surprised at how much overhaul people feel this team needs. It is not a failure of our team that the Yankees outspent the rest of the league to
get 3 players and won the division. We still won 95 games and the wild card easily. We have a relatively young talented staff and can still hit.
1) Starters - Beckett- option automatically vested, Lester , Matsuzaka-no WBC will make all the difference, Buchholz - no doubt this is his year to make an impact Wakefield - our best pitcher till he went down with injury , if the surgery took, he will always have a home in our rotation. 2) Lowell - every thing I have read is that doctors have told him to expect 90% out of the hip after an off season of rest , which makes him still an above average glove at 3B and a Fenway built RH hitter. 3) Ortiz - one of the best power hitter in the league after the ASB, and had a killer September. I for one am not about to give up on him 4) Bay - I think this will get done. Bay likes it here and has been a great fit. we just need to be fair with him and give him the years he wants. Holliday is a NL hitter he has proved as much. 5) A. Gonzo - why we let him go in the first place is beyond me. I am a Lowrie Believer, but to not get this guy who solidifies the left side defense makes no sense. 6) Bullpen - Oki, MDC, Bard, Papelbon are back . Saito loves it here and will resign with us for less and he was a great addition. add Richardson Hunter Jones and other spare parts and it is still a solid pen. 7) Bench- Kotchman adds so much to us I love the way he hits and his glove is solid, Lowrie covers 3 positions , Tek is a great backup catcher, and Gathright or Anderson, are acceptable to me as back up OFers if Baldelli cant get right. I would rather us stand pat and give guys like Bates, Reddick, and Wagner a chance to percolate up , and C.Kelley a chance to blow through AA and AAAon his way to the Boston Pen/rotation in September |
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TokenWilliams |
#351 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 493 10/24/09 11:22 AM |
MDC - I'm in a couple camps on him. I agree with those who say he's a solid relief pitcher. However, I do think he's a shiny chip in a trade, but we might just be talking symantics on what our opinions of a shiny chip are. I'm not saying he's a blue chip; just a good piece of a trade who adds real value to the deal and not a throw in. Let's face it. this guy is a proven major leaguer with a live arm who has succeeded in Boston and during the playoffs. There are going to be pitching coaches everywhere clamouring to get their hands on him. There will be GM's desperate to fix bullpens who will look at him as an upgrade. I think teams are starting to realize the value of a good bullpen all around baseball. Veteran teams need them to win the WS or make playoffs (see Cubs and Tigers) and teams with young pitching staffs need good bullpens and good defense to help their young pitchers keep confidence and grow as players. On top of all that MDC is team controlled for the next 3 seasons. That's huge in this day and age where a middle reliever can get 3 or 4 years at 4-5 million per season... that's a big investment to make.
Brisox - i agree that there aren't a lot of changes that need to be made, but I do feel Ortiz is the biggest problem with this lineup and it's only going to get worse in my eyes. I'd like to add Abreu for 2/20M and make him the full time DH and 4th OF. Dual role allows you to work Ortiz into games and rest your OF's... the downside he's a LHH and so it Ortiz is minimal to me as Abreu does just fine verse LHP and I'd rather have Drew in games vs LHP than have him sitting... having the RHH on the bench for Tito just gives him the excuse to sit JD... I also do not want Gathright or Anderson on this team... I'm fine with another OF on the roster, but not those guys... they are nice when roster's expand and on playoff rosters for PR, but not for full season guys... they bring nothing to the table in the batters box and you can always go find a pinch runner for the playoffs... I also want a Harden or Bedard on a 1 year deal for the 5th starters spot. |
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MVPedroia15 |
#352 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 8 10/24/09 11:28 AM |
I posted this earlier on mlbtraderumors, and I'll post here as well:
I think with Jed Hoyer becoming the GM of the Padres, the Sox will have a good chance at getting Gonzalez. If the Sox did attempt to trade for him over the summer, Hoyer will already be familiar with the frameworks of the deal, and will have knowledge of the prospects that SD would be getting in return. They may have to restructure the deal a bit, but I only see this move as helping the deal. "Sox and Pinstripes" had a good article on how to get Gonzo without giving up Kelly, Bard, Buchholz or Westmoreland: http://www.soxandpinstrip...hholz-bard-or-kelly.html The only roadblock I can see here is that its probably not the smartest decision to trade the face of your franchise as you first move. However, I think Hoyer, like Epstein, values prospects/youth and the deal will get done. Aside from Adrian, the Sox should kick the tires on JJ Hardy and Stephen Drew. If nothing gets done there, then Alex Gonzalez is a fine starting SS for 2010, keeping the seat warm for Jose Iglesias. (We might have to get a stopgap for 2011 as well, but I like Iglesias as our SS of the future) I'd much rather have Bay than Holliday. I think Holliday will want to stay in the NL anyway, and it sounds like he'll be a Met in 2010. Bay has been a solid producer, albeit streaky, since the trade. I can see 4 years at 16MM per getting it done- not bad given we gave Drew 5 years, 14MM per. Bay, as a #6 hitter is very productive. He's not a you-know-who replacement, and has, IMO, been unfairly labeled as such by some people given that they were essentially traded for each other. At DH, platoon Lowell and Ortiz until their contracts are off the books in 2011. Lowell can also sub Youk at 3B and Gonzo at 1B (by playing 3rd and having Youk shift over) Take a look at John Lackey and Aroldis Chapman. With Lackey, I'd hesitate to go for four years, but either way I don't think he'll be an Angel next year, especially given the anger we all saw when they took him out in Game 5. For Chapman, with the Sox depth of starters (which always seems plentiful in ST, and bleak by the time August rolls around), we could afford to start him in AAA, which he'll hopefully realize is beneficial for his development. Rushing him to the Majors on a big contract with some small market team (i.e. Orioles, Mariners) will produce lackluster results. Letting him develop his secondary stuff could make him lethal. The Sox need an athletic backup catcher who can actually throw runners out. Nobody springs to mind in FA, maybe a guy like Mark Wagner. As usual, and as has been said already, sign some reclamation pitchers-Harden, Bedard, Duchsherer. I don't think Webb falls into this category, and I think he'll ultimately stay in Arizona. (Now heres the fun part) If Joe Mauer hits FA in 2011, give him a blank check. Ortiz and Lowell will be off the roster, and V-Mart could DH (probably his best suited role as he ages) V-Mart could take most of the time at DH, maybe playing catcher every 5th day and DH'ing Mauer. That way both catcher can play close to 162 without too much of the wear and tear we see with most backstops. I would not hesitate to give Mauer 8 years, 22+MM per. He's that kind of player. So, 2010 Lineup looks like: C-Martinez 1B-Ad. Gonzalez 2B-Pedroia 3B-Youk SS-Alex Gonzalez or Hardy LF-Bay CF-Ellsbury RF-Drew DH-Ortiz/Lowell Bench Lowrie Lowell/Ortiz Wagner Baldelli SP Lester Beckett Buchholz Matsuzaka Wakefield Harden/Bedard/etc. AAA-Chapman (mid to late season call up) CL-Papelbon which reminds me, don't trade Pap, let him go year to year, getting about 10MM per, then when he hits FA, let him go and collect the draft picks, THEN put Daniel Bard in the closer spot 2011 DH-Martinez C-Mauer SS-Iglesias Buchholz
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Guidas |
If King Felix Becomes a Red Sox in the Off Season Do You Trade Beckett? | #353 | ||
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Posts: 6 10/24/09 12:48 PM |
Heard so much speculation that the Sox will try to make a King Felix deal happen. If it does* - and assuming you probably give up Buchholz, Bard, Kelly, and
Reddick or Kalish, and maybe another prospect - do you then trade Beckett? The theory is: with the King on board Sox would extend him not Beckett. With a year
left would the Sox try to then move Beckett IF you can get in return for Beckett a player like Kemp (Dodgers dying for an "ace), Braun (ditto Milwaukee)
or a player of that ilk. If such a deal could be had, then there's no need to sign Bay so the dollars actually work out well for the Sox in terms of
extending Felix and even, if they want, saving $$$ for 2011 (or even signing Lackey for a 4 year deal if they were of the mind). If not, you go into the spring
with a rotation of Hernandez, Lester, Beckett, DiceK and WhoReallyCares, with one-year stop-gap in left to hold a place for either Reddick or Kalish (i.e.
whichever wasn't dealt in the King Felix deal). *All that said, personally, I think there is a very low probability that the Sox get King Felix in the off
season even if he is put on the block. Their real chance was at the trading deadline with that last minute,24-hour window when other teams were caught
flat-footed or not settled in their off-season strategy (i.e. I couldn't see the Yankees including Cano in a 2009 deadline deal for KF, but certainly in
the off season). To re-visit this deal during Hot Stove Time, I think there would be more competition, and from teams with more to offer in terms of prospects
(esp Texas, Angels, Milwaukee, and maybe even Tampa)/MLB ready talent (Yankees, White Sox, Angels, Milwuakee, Dodgers, Phillies). Remember, so teams would do
that deal to get 2 years of the King and go for it, not worrying about extending him (Tampa, Milwaukee), while others - Red Sox, White Sox, Texas, Yankees,
Angels, Phillies, Dodgers) would go for the extension.
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Archie Graham |
Re: If King Felix Becomes a Red Sox in the Off Season Do You Trade Beckett? | #354 | ||
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Posts: 3014 10/24/09 1:03 PM |
If the Red Sox give up that much for Felix, they probably don't have a choice but to trade Beckett, if they want to solve some offensive problems.
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SoxSail |
#355 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 244 10/24/09 1:28 PM |
if you can get Kemp or Braun right now for Beckett, you do it, irregardless of whether you can get Felix. These are proven MLB stars, and they would never be
given away for a one year rental on a sometimes ace pitcher nearing the end of his contract and the beginning of his thirties.
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Guidas |
#356 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 7 10/24/09 1:45 PM |
"These are proven MLB stars, and they would never be given away for a one year rental on a sometimes ace pitcher nearing the end of his contract and the
beginning of his thirties."
You forget, sir, that you are dealing with the veteran-prizing, mind-bending logic of Ned Colletti. |
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Duffman545 |
#357 | |||
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Posts: 1151 10/24/09 2:44 PM |
I do agree that LA might be a good landing spot for Beckett should the FO try to trade him, but if I'm running the Dodgers I'm more focused on signing
Kemp and Ethier to long term contracts, not trading them for soon-to-be free agent pitchers. All this talk of Kemp being traded is kind of silly, and Braun
even crazier.
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JimRiceRocks |
#358 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1169 10/24/09 2:57 PM Veteran Member |
MVPedroia15 wrote:
"You can never have too much bitching" - left coast bosox fan
"No wonder a lot of opponent's announcers have bullpenis envy - left coast bosox fan |
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TokenWilliams |
#359 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 494 10/24/09 3:53 PM |
Jim my boy how can you be so confident Mauer won't be signed by the Sox? I'd say the odds are against it for several reasons, but pipe dream? If he
becomes a free agent he'll probably either be a Red Sox or a Yankee and i'd say there's a 50/50 chance of him becoming a Free Agent. then I'd
put the Odd's 80/20 in the Yankees favor so i give the Red Sox a 10% chance of Joe Mauer walking through that door.... Don't even try to argue with my
numbers or logic as they are scientific facts
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JimRiceRocks |
#360 | |||
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Posts: 1170 10/24/09 4:04 PM Veteran Member |
He's from MN, they are opening a new stadium next year, the state would revolt if he isn't signed. Seriously, the GM would get death threats if they
don't resign him. And Mauer wants to stay. He is not going anywhere.
"You can never have too much bitching" - left coast bosox fan
"No wonder a lot of opponent's announcers have bullpenis envy - left coast bosox fan |
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