Due to living in Cincinnati for most of my chidlhood the Reds have always been my favorite NL team so I've probably seen 20-30 games on TV and been to 6 games in person over the last two years. As a consequence I have fallen in love with Joey Votto. He would be a perfect lefty bat in the middle of the Sox order and with Alonso pounding minor league pitching the Reds may be persuaded to trade him. I realize that he won't come cheap. However, the Reds have had a serious problem with their leadoff hitters all year. Ellsbury could easily peak their interest. A package of Jacoby, Buchholz, and Lowrie could possibly do it and leave our farm system mostly untouched. This would also give the Sox the oppurtunity to sign Figgins to play Center and allow us to still get a power bat in left field.
SoxProspects.com
The Red Sox 2009-2010 Offseason Discussion Thread
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 soxfan 02 |
Votto | #281 | ||
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Posts: 100 10/20/09 5:20 PM |
Last Edited By: soxfan 02 10/20/09 5:24 PM.
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 BringHanleyback2 |
#282 | |||
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Posts: 213 10/20/09 5:25 PM |
soxfan 02 wrote:The only way I would give up Buchholz is for a young ligament superstar and I would not call Votto a superstar. |
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mredsox89 |
#283 | |||
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Posts: 762 10/20/09 5:33 PM |
No way I trade Buchholz straight up for Votto, and certainly not along with Ellsbury and Lowrie. Only way Buchholz leaves if he is the Major League talent in a
trade for Felix, Adrian Gonzalez, Morneau. Those teams will want someone who has proven their abilities in the majors along with a significant prospect bunch.
Sometimes I think we overvalue prospects. If you can get a top flight player for them, even if the prospect has that slim chance of being better, I will take
the proven star. As sox fans, we really don't have to worry about the $ aspect of a superstar over a top prospect. Just my two cents
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soxfan 02 |
#284 | |||
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Posts: 101 10/20/09 5:34 PM |
34 HR, 104 RBI, while hitting .320/.410/.575(circa) in roughly 160 games since his father died and he began battling anxiety which ultimately cuased him to
miss most of June and he has completely recouperate from that problem. At the age of 26 and 4 years of team control left Votto is the definition of a young
superstar.
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BringHanleyback2 |
#285 | |||
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Posts: 214 10/20/09 5:41 PM |
He's really good no doubt, but I don't think he's on the same level as guys like Hanley Ramirez, Prince Fielder or Felix Hernandez.
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soxfan 02 |
#286 | |||
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Posts: 102 10/20/09 5:41 PM |
mredsox89 wrote:How could you possibly not trade Buchholz for Votto straight up? Also, Adrian Gonzalez has nothing on Votto, Stats this year on the Road AGonzo: .306/.402/.643 Votto: .336/.425/.567 And that was Gonzo's 4th full year in the bigs while it was only Votto's 2nd. Plus Gonzalez can't touch lefty pitching but Votto actually hits better against lefties.
Last Edited By: soxfan 02 10/20/09 5:54 PM.
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soxfan 02 |
#287 | |||
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Posts: 103 10/20/09 5:48 PM |
BringHanleyback2 wrote: Could you please produce a stat that shows that Votto wasn't at least as good over their careers. Fielder: .284/.381/.550 Ramirez: .316/.386/.531 Votto: .310/.388/.536 And don't get me wrong I would much rather have Ramirez solely because he can play SS but if you're looking at them only as hitters Votto is just as good and much better then Fielder if you consider fielding.
Last Edited By: soxfan 02 10/20/09 5:55 PM.
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SexyBanana |
#288 | |||
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Posts: 1309 10/20/09 5:55 PM
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Votto is a great player no doubt. I would not give up Buchholz for him, you could probably get him for a lesser package.
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jdb |
#289 | |||
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Posts: 211 10/20/09 5:58 PM |
I like Votto a lot but at this point I just dont think he makes enough for the Reds to trade him. Also im pretty sure I have seen where the Reds seem to think he can play LF once Alonso is ready. |
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BringHanleyback2 |
#290 | |||
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Posts: 215 10/20/09 6:00 PM |
soxfan 02 wrote:Fielder has been a much better power threat and run producer than Votto so far in their careers, which is what the Sox need. Last year according to fan graphs fielder had a UZR/150 of 0.1, while Votto's was -1.5 making Prince the better fielder. I would still love to have Votto but I just would not give up Buchholz. |
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soxfan 02 |
#291 | |||
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Posts: 104 10/20/09 6:15 PM |
I personally think that looking at a single year of UZR/150 can be misleading (Fielder had a better UZR/150 this year then Teixeria which is a complete
joke) in their careers: Votto=3.3, Fielder= -6.5. And while may have more HRs then Votto, Fielder's Slugging is only 14 points higher then Votto's
which doesn't make up for his 7 point loss in OBP and his 26 point drop in average. Plus hitters don't usually gain all of their power until their 4th
or 5th year in the bigs. (Fielder is of course an exception to the rule) Both are extremely good players.
I still don't get why you wouldn't trade Buchholz for him but I guess we just have different prespectives on him and his potential.
Last Edited By: soxfan 02 10/20/09 6:17 PM.
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FenwayTheHardWay |
#292 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1589 10/20/09 6:25 PM Veteran Member |
BringHanleyback2 wrote: There you go. Seriously, people need to stop taking UZR as a perfect, 100% accurate measure of defense. It's a nice tool given a large enough sample, but come on. Have you SEEN Price Fielder?
"Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the
cheese."- Buck Martinez
Last Edited By: FenwayTheHardWay 10/20/09 6:30 PM.
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BringHanleyback2 |
#293 | |||
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Posts: 216 10/20/09 6:46 PM |
FenwayTheHardWay wrote:I'm not too high on UZR either but I haven't really seen either of them play defense much so that's all I had to go by. |
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raftsox |
#294 | |||
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Posts: 1368 10/20/09 9:06 PM |
Park factors are important to remember soxfan02.
Petco is the hardest park to get hits and doubles in, and the second hardest to hit homeruns in. GABP on the other hand is very hitter friendly. Therefore I recommend not using the traditional triple slash because it hurts your argument. Try instead to use a park neutral tool: I prefer batting value (fangraphs). AGon was 48.9 park adjusted runs above average while Votto was a respectable albeit lesser 37.8. According to batting value Votto was the 8th best 1B in baseball this season: AGon was third behind Pujols and Fielder.
I am speechless. ...this site is not intended to be a place where you post every ridiculous and half-formed thought that comes into your head.
... You should post less. - AMarshal2
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Arthur Spooner |
#295 | |||
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Rookie
Posts: 5 10/20/09 9:07 PM |
If we trade Ellsbury(I'm for it, if he brings in a young bat), I really hope we sign Mike Cameron instead of Figgins. Figgins would likely be better
offensively, but what I'm more worried about is the D, especially if they resign Bay. Sure Figgins is fast, but playing center is more then that. How does
he read the ball of the bat? How are his routes to the ball? Not a huge sample, but in 1918 innings, Figgins UZR/150 is -3.5. Not horrid, but he hasn't
played center since 06, so I'd expect him to have gotten worse. Cameron on the other hand is one of the premier defensive CF in the game. Another thing I
like about Cameron is he could probably be had on a short term deal, so he wont be blocking Reddick/Kalish.
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FenwayTheHardWay |
#296 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1590 10/20/09 9:18 PM Veteran Member |
BringHanleyback2 wrote: I like UZR just fine, it's your application of UZR that bugged me. Here's what I would look at: Votto: 2457.2 innings, 3.3 UZR/150 Fielder: 5506.0 innings, -6.5 UZR/150 And here's what else I would look at: 
"[Cecil] Fielder acknowledges a weight of 261, leaving unanswered the question of what he might weigh if he put his other foot on the scale" - Bill James This is a body type that has, historically, not aged well. In my estimation, Votto should be a major league quality defender at first more or less indefinitely. On the other hand, if Fielder isn't a DH by his 30th birthday, I'll eat my hat. Getting back to the original question, I'm not sure I'd trade Buchholz for either of them, but Votto is the more appealing of the two (if you consider service time, there's not even a debate). Finally, considering that neither Votto nor Buchholz is likely to be available in the first place... I'm not sure why I spent so much time on this post.
"Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the
cheese."- Buck Martinez
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TheGoldenGreek33 |
#297 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 3160 10/20/09 9:20 PM Veteran Member |
Has there been any rumors indicating the Reds are shopping Votto or did somebody just pull it out of their ass?
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FenwayTheHardWay |
#298 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 1591 10/20/09 9:27 PM Veteran Member |
TheGoldenGreek33 wrote: The ass thing.
"Jonathan Papelbon, not wasting any time, going to his bread and butter there, and that's the
cheese."- Buck Martinez
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jspearlj1 |
#299 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 4907 10/20/09 9:55 PM |
Do rumors originate from anywhere but asses? I mean that covers Jon Heyman and Shaughnessy very well.
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ancientsoxfogey |
#300 | |||
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Veteran Member
Posts: 4368 10/20/09 9:58 PM Veteran Member |
Well, if you want a good-hitting (though not HOF-calibre anymore) OF for 2010, the Dodgers might be willing to part with Manny Ramirez relatively cheaply at
this point .....
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Roses are red, Violets are blue, I love me. Why don't you? |
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