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Hank |
#241 | |||
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Does anyone else just not want to deal with Boras period or am I the only one? I think Bay is probably gone because the RS will not go beyond 5 years and
someone else like Seattle probably will. But to go through the extended torture for Holliday, the lies, the required overpayment, it just makes me ill-
getting played on Tex didn't help my attitude either. I'd rather find a band aid for the next year or two than deal with that, just MO. I'd
rather the model be "Minnesota with the cash to keep our own" and the OCCASSIONAL foray into FA, if Boras isn't the agent. If that means NY wins
so be it.
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Baseball Boston |
#242 | |||
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People say they are looking for a premium bat, but I look at the market and I do not see a premium bat out there. The only person I think that is a big bat in
this market is Jason Bay. I personally prefer Figgins to Bay. He brings a lot more to the table. Bay is terrible defensively. He is slow on the base paths, and
he is going to seek a long term big money contract. He has more minus' than Figgins. Figgins can not hit the long ball, but he can get on base (high OBP),
steal bases (turning singles into doubles and triples), get in the heads of opposing pitchers, which helps bring up the pitch count and gets them out of their
groove. Figgins can come cheaper and for fewer years.
I would prefer a big bat, that is why we should have signed Texeria last year. This market does not have a big bat available. If we sign Figgins and Beltre we shore up the defense, and keep the draft picks, via losing Bay. It puts us in a better position long term and for the trading deadline, when we still have all of our prospects out there. Holiday is no good in the AL East. I would rather have Abreu. I think people are being a little rediculous and not adapting to what the market has to offer. You need to move with the market, you can not pay someone big money because it is a weak market. If there was a Manny Ramirez circa 2000 in this market I would be all over him, but there is not. Figgins in my opinion is the best free agent out there. He brings more to the table than anyone, and gives the team more flexibility in the case that Mike Lowell or Big Papi have a semi bounce back year. If you sign Holiday or Bay to a long term deal, then you are stuck with them. Holiday is the new version of JD Drew. I do not want another guy like that on this team. Theo was coned by Boris with JD Drew and he does not want another version in the same outfield. Play the market fellas. |
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buffs44444 |
#243 | |||
amfox1 wrote: If Boras has "put feelers out" that it will take 5/$100M to sign him I'd be the first in line on the first day of FA to sign him. No he's not Teixeira, and no he's not perfect. But he's the best bat on the FA market for a team that has a dire need for a middle of the order bat. Is it overspending at $20M/yr? Of course it is, but the value is there, and it enables the team to save their prospect depth to deal for Stephen Drew to fill the SS hole for a few years until Iglesias is ready......but that's getting ahead of the game. With regards to left field: either way we'll overpay to fill that void in LF, whether it's with prospects in a trade or cash via free agency. Time to suck it up and realize that a 5 year deal for a 30-year old isn't the worst thing in the world.
Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
"Be the change you want to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi |
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Archie Graham |
#244 | |||
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Chone Figgins and Adrian Beltre?
I agree we need better defense, but Sox fans are starting to go overboard now. |
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raftsox |
#245 | |||
Baseball Boston wrote:You wouldn't want the second best outfielder (by OPS) in the American League??? Add in the positives that defense has to offer and Drew is a great player. I'm sorry to bash on you personaly, but it's ignorant statements like this that give Red Sox fans everywhere a bad name. Would you rather have Trot Nixon back because he's a dirt dog? I'll take the best player available rather than one that "has proven he can play in Boston".
I am speechless. ...this site is not intended to be a place where you post every ridiculous and half-formed thought that comes into your head.
... You should post less. - AMarshal2
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Baseball Boston |
#246 | |||
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"Add in the positives that defense has to offer and Drew is a great player." as Tito says, I think you're reaching. I would not say JD Drew is a
great player at all. He's not even a top 10 outfielder. I'm not trying to bash him at all. I just do not want another version of him on this team. It
has nothing to do with the dirt dog mentality that you so fondly remember. I unlike you are not living in 2004. As much as you seem to ignore the money
involved, money does affect other transactions. If we take a lesser player this year on a $100 million dollar contract, when the right one comes by we will not
be able to bid on them. The Sox are handicapped right now because of players like Ortiz and Lowell who have immovable contracts. I want flexibility, so when
the best options come up we can jump on them. It is called being prepared. I personally think that Figgins brings more to the table than any of these other
clowns in this weak free agent market. I'd rather see him get 3 years around 10 million than sign Bay or Holliday for 5 years and double the money. I do
not want the Sox to limit themselves by bringing on a big contract that they can not move in the next few years because this year was a weak crop of free
agents.
Never act based off of reaction. Act based off of understanding. |
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DCRi |
#247 | |||
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I agree that the FA market is pretty barren, but I thnk we were discussion off-season acquisition strategies which involve more than signing free agents.
Generally, I believe most FA contracts of any length do not work out well for the teams. Obviously, there are exceptions.
No, probably the only way the Sox get a big bat is through a trade or two (possibly one trade that gets someone who could be flipped in the second trade). Also, Amfox1, which part of my post did you not buy at all? What you wrote seemed to reinforce what I wrote. I don't see a substantive difference between my post and yours. |
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amfox1 |
#248 | |||
DCRi wrote:1. This is not a "last hurrah" team. This is a team built for the next 2-3 years. 2. I do not see the Hankees going after another SP (other than potentially a 5th starter candidate). |
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Nexus |
#249 | |||
Baseball Boston wrote: My understanding: Soon to be 32 year old Chone Figgins comes with no power and 23 career starts in left field... a position that has traditionally been designated for players who can drive in runs. Also, signing Figgins to play anything other than 3B severely diminishes his value. |
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amfox1 |
#250 | |||
Baseball Boston wrote:Leaving aside that your standard is totally unfair, as many great players are not free agent-eligible and therefore are not paid free market value. Drew (914 OPS) is tied for the 10th highest paid outfielder in baseball (Ramirez (949 OPS), Beltran (915 OPS), Lee (831 OPS), Ordonez (804 OPS), Hunter (873 OPS), Suzuki (851 OPS), Soriano (726 OPS), Guerrero (794 OPS), tied with Sheffield (823 OPS)). Name ten free agent-eligible outfielders who are better. Who are the right free agents? I don't disagree with your premise, but only with your conclusion that there is a "right" free agent. No dispute on Ortiz or Lowell, although both can be jettisoned during the year. I can see Lowell be traded during the offseason. I think Ortiz will play out his contract, and I foresee a monster year as he gets back in shape. Figgins is more likely to get closer to 4/$44 than 3/$30. I would guess Bay at closer to 5/$75 and Holliday at closer to 5/$90. Do you still like Figgins the best of the three? |
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SeaDog19 |
#251 | |||
I would not say JD Drew is a great player at all. He's not even a top 10 outfielder. You are right. J.D. Drew was the 11th best outfielder in baseball, according to Fangraphs, sandwiched between Ryan Braun and Justin Upton. Drew in Good Company However, I think your point was that J.D. Drew is not an elite player, and his stats from 2009 would say otherwise. I know that Drew can't play 160 games and doesn't look like he is trying very hard, but J.D. Drew is an elite outfielder on both sides of the ball. |
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TokenWilliams |
#252 | |||
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Figgins might have finished close to .400 in OBP this year, but can we please look at his career stats before we label him as a .400 OBP guy... there's
only 1 other year in his career where he was close to that (2007 in 442 ABs)... he's more likely to be closer to .350 than he his .400... see value
plummet...
32 years old & guy who relies on his speed are two other key situations with him... And, where are we getting he's a great defensive outfielder.... is it because we want him to be or because he's fast so he must be good? I don't know that he's not good, but I do know this is a guy that's bounced around to a lot of positions. That's usually partly because they can and partly because they aren't great at any of them... |
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SeaDog19 |
#253 | |||
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I think we should add Conor Jackson to the left field discussion. All reports indicate that he is behind his bout with valley fever:
Jackson Feeling Okay Theo has always lusted after Jackson, he plays solid defense in left field, and I'm not sure he would cost an elite prospect, given his cost of at least $3 to $4 million entering his second year of arbitration. Old Gammons on Theo's Conor Jackson Love By the way, some of the 20/20 irony in the 2005 Gammons article is great... |
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DCRi |
#254 | |||
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Amfox1, my bad, poor wording. I did not mean the team was a last hurrah team. I meant that several of the players are, or may be, i.e. Damon, Matsui, Posada,
even possibly Jeter, although I would make that argument very strongly based on this season. However, I doubt he will do this well again. So the Yankees do
have some holes to fill, and they will fill them.
As to pitching I just said they would go after a SP. What I was thinking was similar to you, not so much of a top of the line pitcher, but someone to round out the rotation, particularly if Pettitte retires. And, of course, there really aren't any top of the line SPs on the FA market this year. |
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TheGoldenGreek33 |
#255 | |||
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As unfair as it'd be to look at Figgins 09 OBP, it''d be equally unfair to look at his career OBP. Instead, use the past three seasons (which comes
in at .386). I'm not advocating signing him, but keep that in perspective.
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Baseball Boston |
#256 | |||
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My point is that there is not a good free agent available for the cost. Which is why I say wait it out, and choose the right fit when the right fit is
available, down the road. I do not want the Sox to sign a player for more than he is worth, and then be saddled with a bad contract. I do not think that free
agent exists this year. I think Figgins gives the Sox flexibility that they need. He can play the infield and outfield. He gives the team much needed speed. He
changes the game in more aspects than Bay and Holiday. I understand that he is not the ideal left fielder, however he brings a lot to the table. The team is
getting very slow and unathletic. Bring in a speedy guy who can play a lot of positions, who allows you to change the lineup depending on who you are playing.
The top of the order with Figgins and Pedroia, would be very good, both high OBP guys. That already helps your 3 and 4 guys. It allows Ellsbury to relax a little, seeing as he is not hacking it as a lead off hitter. Figgins allows other players to fall in place, and if they get cold, he can fill in or Youk can move across the diamond, etc. I disagree with you that Lowell can be traded and Ortiz will have a monster year. Most scouts think he has slowed down and can't catch up to the baseball, I do not know if a better work out plan during the offseason will help improve this. Lowell is being paid a lot of money in a down economic year. Who can you see picking him up? Clearly if the Sox want to eat the whole contract, but that is a different story. I do not like Holiday or Bay for 5 years, and Figgins at 4 years is not the greatest either, but I still would rather take some speed at this point with defensive value than a DH in waiting, and the possibility that Holiday can't hack it in the AL. As we saw with the A's he has had trouble in the AL. I do not want Bay, I see him turning into Ortiz down the road, clogging up the bases, not being able to catch up to fast balls. I just want flexibility. Save the money for the right opportunity.
Last Edited By: Baseball Boston 10/19/09 5:59 PM.
Edited 1 time.
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soxfan 02 |
#257 | |||
Baseball Boston wrote:Figgins has a abysmal -17.7 UZR/150 in 240 innings in Left (Bay: -7.8, Holliday: 6.2) so he would be far from a defensive wizard in Left for us. Personally, I like Figgins though just not playing Left (a typical power position) if the Red Sox could manage a trade where they package Buchholz and Ellsbury for a power bat then Figgins would be a fine option to take over in Center where he may be an upgrade over Ellsbury both defensively (Figgins: -3.5, Ellsbury: -7.9) and at the plate. |
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PrahaSMC |
#258 | |||
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Can someone explain to me the outcry against signing Matt Holliday?
In 2,000 PAs during his age 26-28 seasons, he posted an OPS+ of 142 . Then for 270 PAs-- while adjusting to a new league, weaker line-up, and terrible
hitting environment-- he posts a .286/.374/.454 line, only to rebound and post an OPS > 1.000 in his remaining 400 PAs in a neutral park. So, naturally,
we are to assume that his cameo in Oakland is a better indication of his true talent level, as opposed to say the 2,400 PAs it was sandwiched between? I
guess we probably should have closed the book on J.D. Drew after his first 270 PAs in the AL too.
I don't believe that Matt Holliday is the answer to all of this teams' problems, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the difference in salary between Holliday and Bay is going to offset the fact that Holliday, is better, younger, and nets a draft pick. It seems to me like it's an easy upgrade, at a time when I don't believe the Yankees will be serious bidders. All things considered, the Red Sox have dealt with Boras pretty well, so I see no reason why we can't go out and allocate $32 million/year to a pair of athletic corner outfielders, who get on-base and play good defense. "This Kenny Mauer should go home to his wife... because nobody here loves him." - Tommy Heinsohn |
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Yirmiyahu |
#259 | |||
PrahaSMC wrote:Completely agree with this. Not only that, but after slumping through his first 28 games, Holliday posted a .316/.420/.489/.909 line the rest of the way in Oakland (276 PA's). |
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SoxSail |
#260 | |||
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Just like the reluctance to sign Bay (from me at least) I think that people who don't want Holliday are worried about his cost, especially if a few teams
(Yanks, SF, Angels, etc.) get involved. There's also the little problem of his performance in the AL.
That being said, I agree somewhat with Fangraphs who value him significantly more than Bay. I'd much rather have him, and I'd overpay if I knew it was the Yanks I was spiting; we can't let them have all of the best players each season. But Praha, you've now said that you don't believe the Yanks will be in on either Bay or Holliday. With Damon and Matsui coming of their books, why would they not sign one of the two best candidates to replace them, especially if they're doing the same value analysis that the Sox are? There's an argument that Damon might come back for a year, since he doesn't cost them a pick, and the ballpark is good for lefties, but can you expect him to repeat this year's performance for long, and even then, are the savings large enough to preclude them from signing a better player? |
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