CS% & Options at Catcher in SoxProspects Discussion Forum

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CS% & Options at Catcher

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DCRi		#21	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1136 10/12/09 11:51 PM Veteran Member	The CS percentage really is only meaningful if it is known how many of those stolen bases resulted in runs that would not have scored if the runner had been thrown out. That statistic then could be measured against the runs created by the catcher as a batter. Right now it is assumed that a good hitting but not very good throwing catcher makes up for his defensive weakness with his offensive prowess. Do we really know that to be true? And if only a few runs actually were created by the stolen base then perhaps the throwing ability is not that big a deal. There certainly have been a lot of very good hitting catchers who have had long careers without being known as good defensive catchers. So the people running these teams valued the hitting well above the defense. If Varitek had hit .280 with 25 HRs in each of the past couple of years, but still had the poor CS percentage, I would be willing to bet that few people would be clamoring for him to be replaced. Last Edited By: DCRi 10/12/09 11:54 PM. Edited 1 time.
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Slumpbuster		#22	[url]	[-]
Rookie Posts: 44 10/13/09 6:56 AM	You're right that nobody would care about Varitek's cs% if he was hitting .280 with 25 homers. And the reason for that is if a catcher is putting up those numbers he is a perennial All-Star. We're not talking about a corner outfielder here - and even if we were, those numbers would be as good as both Bay's and Drew's.
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mtomeo		#23	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 379 10/13/09 8:24 AM Veteran Member	Why not give Dusty Brown a shot? IIRC, it was a toss-up between he and Kottaras last year. Yeah, he's coming off a down year at the plate, but he's known for his catching, not hitting. Seems like he would be a defensive backup who also has the ability to hit (well, at least an average bat) and he comes really cheap. Actually, looking closer at his splits, his clutch numbers are very good. As a Plan B I might be OK with Dusty backing up V-Mart next year.
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TokenWilliams		#24	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 473 10/13/09 10:12 AM	I agree with those that say it's just as much on the pitching staff as it is on the catchers. In fact, I'm going to go a step futher and put it on management as well. The Sox talk openly about focusing on the batter and not the runner. Many teams go to slid steps, etc to give the catcher a greater chance of throwing out a runner. The Sox do no such thing. It's unfair to criticize the catchers for something the organization is open about making it a low(er) priority. If V-Mart has had recent success throwing guys out then I think that speaks volumes to the Sox and their stratgies. This team has problems in the batter's box not behind the plate... Catching is set for next year. V-Mart the starter and Tek the backup (probably playing more than most as VMart will play first more with Youk over at 3b)... Tek wouldn't have negotiated a 2 year deal to retire... he understands he's the backup
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mastaexarkun		#25	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 113 10/13/09 8:12 PM	I think its so funny that out of the three catchers the sox were looking at last offseason Monty ended up having the best year, and we could've had him for bowden.
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Arquimedez Bozo		#26	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8686 10/13/09 10:09 PM Chris Hatfield Executive Editor SoxProspects.com	mtomeo wrote: As a Plan B I might be OK with Dusty backing up V-Mart next year. I wouldn't be too sad in that case either. However, I'd like to see him "win the job" out of ST in that situation. In other words, I'm ok with it if he beats out this year's version of Josh Bard and Kottaras for the job, but I don't think he should be handed the job by any stretch. If he falters, you've got Wagner waiting for his shot in Pawtucket. "They should go to soxprospect so BOZO THE CLOWN and the rest of THE WANTS TO BE will give you some information" - legendary words from a legendary man "By the way I like the Canadian accent of Chris Hatfield" - the other Charlie Zink guy My Twitter / SoxProspects Twitter / SoxProspects on Facebook
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TheGoldenGreek33		#27	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 3125 10/14/09 5:56 AM Veteran Member	A couple things I'm unsure about is if, say the Sox sign Henry Blanco, who is an abysmal hitter, when is he going to catch? How often is he going to be brought in as a late-inning defensive replacement and how many starts is he going to get? The only reason I wonder is because if we're facing a speedy team like the Rays or Angels (or any team I guess, fast or slow), how far out of the game are we going to be if and when they run all over us? Would putting Blanco or whomever in in the 7th inning be worthless at that point? And if we don't acquire a big bat somehow, how bad is the offense going to be on days Blanco starts? EDIT: And like someone mentioned earlier, this all depends on if the FO thinks Vic's CS% is an aberration. Last Edited By: TheGoldenGreek33 10/14/09 6:10 AM. Edited 1 time.
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TokenWilliams		#28	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 476 10/14/09 8:49 AM	and how affective is someone like Blanco going to be on a team who doesn't focus it's attention on the runner? Especially when the time spent on the field in the proposed situation calls for the back of the bullpen flame throwers like Papelbon and Bard who are typically slower to the plate?
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GuapoGuapo		#29	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 1088 10/14/09 9:38 AM	How about we just get an all-around decent backup? VMart and Varitek both have a career 24% CS%, by the way... "I just really enjoy reading, man. It's totally a good way to stay centered." - Lars
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jamalisamra20		#30	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 624 10/14/09 12:46 PM	I'm a little skeptical about Iannetta. 2009: At Coors: .295 .389 .576 .965 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 139 ABs On the Road: .167 .302 .353 .655 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 150 ABs 2008: At Coors: .250 .381 .512 .893 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 172 ABs On the Road: .280 .400 .497 .897 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 161 ABs What do we make of this? The walk rate always seems to be there, but his other numbers are all over the map. Hit chart, anyone?
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Yirmiyahu		#31	[url]	[-]
Posts: 561 10/14/09 2:39 PM Forum Moderator	jamalisamra20 wrote: I'm a little skeptical about Iannetta. 2009: At Coors: .295 .389 .576 .965 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 139 ABs On the Road: .167 .302 .353 .655 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 150 ABs 2008: At Coors: .250 .381 .512 .893 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 172 ABs On the Road: .280 .400 .497 .897 (AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS) in 161 ABs What do we make of this? The walk rate always seems to be there, but his other numbers are all over the map. Hit chart, anyone? Over his career, he has good balance for a Coors hitter: .256/.368/.466/.834 (home), .229/.354/.427/.780 (away). The year-to-year variation is just small sample size. A catcher who can hit for a .354 OBP on the road is pretty damn good (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/seasontype/2/position/c/split/34/sort/onBasePct/order/true/minpa/140). Really, the only bad thing I can find to say about this guy is that his righty/lefty splits are pretty imbalanced.
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buffs44444		#32	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1195 10/14/09 10:40 PM	The key to watch with Iannetta would be whether the Rockies & Yorvit Torrealba agree to his mutual option for next year. If so, then Iannetta becomes much more available as the Rockies have McHenry ready to move up from AAA (.830 OPS, 33% CS, excellent reports on defense/makeup according to BA). McHenry isn't the long-term prospect that Rosario may be for the Rockies, but he's going to be cheaper as a backup than Iannetta would be, and Tracy proved in the playoffs who he is more comfortable having catch his staff (Yorvit). Nothing major to see here, just something to watch for. With Salty's injury problems, Iannetta is one of the better young catchers I'd like to see the team acquire this offseason...... Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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Cem21		#33	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2455 10/18/09 12:11 PM Chris Mellen Director of Scouting SoxProspects.com	Victor Martinez, C, Red Sox - If he is the full-time, 100- to 110-game catcher next season, scouts believe he needs to shorten his release to be better at throwing out runners. Martinez, according to one scout, "long-arms his throws. It just takes him too long to get the ball down to second base. In order to combat that, you either have to have pitchers who can hold runners on base, which the Red Sox don't, or have them do slide-steps and things of that nature, which they don't like to do, either.'' Gary Tuck supposedly is one of the best catching instructors in the game, so one would think he'd improve this with Martinez. From today's Baseball Notes in the Globe
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kjs4562		#34	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 126 10/18/09 12:42 PM Catching Stats Guru	Atzar wrote: Can somebody figure out how fast our pitchers are to the plate, relative to other teams? If you have one catcher who can't throw basestealers out, that's one thing, but the fact that all three of our catchers rank at the bottom of the league says that maybe this isn't entirely their fault. This is a very good point, almost the whole point. The CS percentages are not this low entirely because of the catchers, or even mostly because of the catchers. It has a little to do with the catchers' throwing, a little to do with the pitchers' ability to hold base runners, and a lot to do with the Red Sox' pitching and defensive philosophies. I'm sure the Sox are not evaluating their catchers based on CS%.
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templeUsox		#35	[url]	[-]
Posts: 15015 10/18/09 12:49 PM Veteran Member Podcast Panelist	One would think Nick Cafardo would know not to use the passive voice.
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kjs4562		#36	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 127 10/18/09 12:52 PM Catching Stats Guru	Arthur Spooner wrote: Using these run values(5 per game), Sox catchers were around 11.6 runs below average this year at throwing out runners. Over a hole season, V-Mart's bat easily makes up for it, but adding a strong armed back up to come in late in games wouldn't be a bad idea. Very interesting numbers here. Notice, at five runs per game, the value the the SB, compared to a PB or a WP, and, of course, hits, runs, walks, errors, etc. There are reasons the Sox want their pitchers focusing on the batter rather than the base runner, why they don't defend the stolen base at third with two outs, etc. They are far more concerned with how well a catcher implements their pitching game plan than they are with his CS% Still, there would be nothing wrong with a catcher who implements the game plan, blocks balls in the dirt, AND throws very well to second. I love the idea of an elite defensive catcher who comes in late in the game, with VMart to first, Youk to third, if they can find one.
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buffs44444		#37	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1272 11/07/09 12:56 PM	Since Chris Snyder is eminently available and has had pretty good CS% the two years prior to last year when he was hurt, I find this pretty disappointing: MLBTR has learned that the Blue Jays and Diamondbacks are in trade talks for catcher Chris Snyder. link No other links provided, so hopefully this is just posturing by Byrnes. Snyder (if healthy) would be a nice option as the backup catcher next year.....good OBP, good control of the running game, basically just a good option to start 80-90 games behind the plate. Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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Norm in Oregon		#38	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 986 11/07/09 2:35 PM Veteran Member	ancientsoxfogey wrote: Maybe people would like to see Wagner get a crack at a catching spot on the roster in 2010, but I simply can't envision the Sox seeing it that way, at least for most of the season. Wagner gets high marks as a leader and a thrower, but lower marks for other nuances of the catching game (see his prospect summary), and we had a statement from the Sox not long ago how they pay a lot of attention to "catching nuances" as the prospects reach the high minors. That plus the fact that Wagner's progression through the minors has included a period of offensive adjustment at each level A+ and up. His latest adjustment period (hopefully) was his stint at AAA after his promotion this past season. Hopefully he'll follow history and show much better with the bat at Pawtucket in 2010. But I have to believe that the Sox are going to give him the opportunity to prove himself there before they move him to Boston. I think a reasonably optimistic scenario for Wagner is that he gets a Sept. 2010 callup (assuming no serious injuries to the catchers on the big club next year), and the Sox really have to decide what his role will be starting in 2011. Or at best, if Wagner shows very well in AAA next year, a very late August callup so that the club might have the option of making him eligible for the postseason. Couldn't disagree more with this analysis, Fogey. My own feeling is that the catching intangibles, while not un-important, are vastly overblown. Wagner's carries a gun with him at all times and that alone makes the team's catching vastly superior to the sorry state of affairs during the just completed season. The figures for Sox catchers, excluding Martinez, are mind-blowingly bad. How bad? Value above replacement is a paltry 4.2 which just stinks. But that's just the start. Half of that was accumulated by Kotteras and Dusty Brown in their measly 111 plate appearances. The remaining 2.1 belongs to Varitek in his 425 PAs. That's not just below the fold on the major league list, it's on the back page. It can't get any worse. There's no question in my mind that Wagner could triple that in half the appearances. That, along with Martinez' exceptional offensive game (combined 44.6 with Cleveland and Boston), would be a blast of fresh air for the catching corpse corps. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. ~ Frederick Douglass
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buffs44444		#39	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1273 11/07/09 5:22 PM	The discussion is Overbay for Snyder, according to azcentral.com: The Diamondbacks are discussing a trade that would send catcher Chris Snyder to the Toronto Blue Jays in exchange for first baseman Lyle Overbay. Nick Piecoro Madness is like gravity....all you need is a little push.
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SoxSail		#40	[url]	[-]
Veteran Member Posts: 306 11/07/09 5:23 PM	Norm in Oregon wrote: My own feeling is that the catching intangibles, while not un-important, are vastly overblown. Wagner's carries a gun with him at all times and that alone makes the team's catching vastly superior to the sorry state of affairs during the just completed season. The figures for Sox catchers, excluding Martinez, are mind-blowingly bad. How bad? Value above replacement is a paltry 4.2 which just stinks. But that's just the start. Half of that was accumulated by Kotteras and Dusty Brown in their measly 111 plate appearances. The remaining 2.1 belongs to Varitek in his 425 PAs. That's not just below the fold on the major league list, it's on the back page. It can't get any worse. There's no question in my mind that Wagner could triple that in half the appearances. That, along with Martinez' exceptional offensive game (combined 44.6 with Cleveland and Boston), would be a blast of fresh air for the catching corps. I assume you mean 4.2/2.1/44.6 Ruuns Above Replacement, not Wins. Can you link where you got those stats? Also, if Kottaras (with two a's i think) and DBrown are so much better than Varitek already, why don't one of them just get the chance instead of Wagner? Because I don't see why Wagner is all of a sudden going to hit like he did at AA without regular reps in the majors. In addition to that, I'm not sure where I fall on the importance of game calling, but probably more important than you think, and less so than Fogey believes, and I'd like to see Wagner get more experience calling games for Bowden, Tazawa and Mills who have full arsenals and are facing equal level hitters.
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CS% & Options at Catcher