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TWilliams4649 |
#21 | |||
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I would love to get Mauer. Then we can move Youk to third, Martinez to first, and Mauer C. He is definitely the best fit for this team right now. Then I would
go with Felix, but I don't know if he is an immediate need right now with Beckett, Lester and Buch. Although if we could somehow have Lester Buch and Felix
in the rotation that is a different story. But I don't think Beckett, and a few prospects would get the Mariners interested enough to part with Felix. And
Dice-K wouldn't even be in the talks for this deal due to his salary and his NTC.
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LarsinCharge |
#22 | |||
WC Sox Fan wrote:I'm not so sure about this. If you go by UZR/150, Youk is at -7.4 at third this year, +7.1 at first. Casey Kotchman has been at +7.5 this year at first. Adrian Beltre has been at +14.5 at third. So this season, Youk/Beltre would have been at a combined +21.6. Kotch/Youk at a combined +0.1. Obviously, UZR/150 isn't the only defensive metric, and Youk did put up a UZR/150 in the 20s at third last season. But Beltre is one of the game's best fielding third basemen, and Youkilis is undoubtedly better at first. |
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Lippa91 |
#23 | |||
LarsinCharge wrote: To add onto that, I wouldn't consider 5 million to be a large sum of money in this context. It's pretty much pocket change for a team like the Sox. Really, anything under 10 mil, so long as it's for short years, would be a relative bargain. Also, you said it yourself, it's hard to know how good Youk's defense would be at 3rd, but we already know that Beltre is an elite defender there. It's hard to imagine that Youk could come close to approximating Belte's defensive value if left to play 3rd full time.
"There's a reason why you wear this Red Sox uniform. Because
you're a bad mother#@%&$." -- David Ortiz
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Ephus |
#24 | |||
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"Things happen in Boston." -Joe Morgan
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DCRi |
#25 | |||
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Seems to me these are some of the factors affecting the Sox decision-making, some of which will not be very clear for a while:
- What do they have in Iglesias? Is he as good as advertised? How close is he, realistically, to the majors? The AFL will provide some insight. If Iglesias appears to be as advertised, and reasonably close to the majors, 1 or 2 years, then if I were them I'd sign Gonzo and plan to play him fulltime if Lowrie does not recover fully AND perform well. I would not bother with any other SS acquisition EXCEPT if the opportunity arose to get Hanley Ramirez. But then I would consider moving him to 3B or the OF. - Is Mike Lowell's hip ever going to really recover? Or, will he be getting shots periodically, and having to go through periuods of rest, during next season? Lowell has shown he still can hit, and he would make a fine DH, if the Sox, or someone else, needed one. However, unless he improves markedly he is a liability in the field, and a problem if relied upon and can't play regularly. - Ortiz will be back next year, maybe for his last year depending on how he does. He certainly has done well in recent weeks. But another prolonged slump might not be as tolerated as it was this year. Lowell does make a good backup there, but Adam Dunn would be even better, or possibly, Jason Bay. - Are they going to sign Bay? I think they will make a very solid effort but probably not give him the length of a deal that he wants. However, I think it unlikely that anyone else will, either. Right now I think the odds are about 60-40 that he returns to the Sox. However, if he doesn't, and the Sox will know fairly soon whether he is likely to, then a hitter has to be acquired. The top prospect OFs are not ready yet. - Is Varitek coming back? I think V-Mart is going to do the majority of the catching next year, but probably with someone else doing more than just being Wake's catcher (if Wake comes back). - Is Wake coming back? Probably will not know until well after his surgery. Regardless of the decision here, the Sox probably need to try to get another top-slight starter. I am skeptical that any of the other existing candidates for the 5th SP position are going to be acceptable. But if you have read my previous posts you know I was not terribly enthusiastic about Tazawa. However, I may have over-estimated Bowden. So, in my estimation the Sox priorities are likely to be: (1) Resolving the Bay situation one way or the other; (2) If not, then replacing Bay with a good hitter; (3) If yes, then focusing on acquiring a top flight SP (4) Making some decisions on the SS-3B situation and taking action accordingly, either signing Gonzo and/or a FA and/or making a trade. I am not sure the Sox have enough top-flight minor league talent to pull off a trade for more than one elite player, SP or position player, without pretty much wiping out the system for a couple years, at least. If Bay leaves then the priority probably would have to be getting an equivalent replacement. If he stays, then the priority probably will be to get a top flight SP. Both tasks are far easier said than done. I do not think there is any chance of getting Mauer. I am very dubious about Seattle giving up their young ace. As much as I like Adrian Gonzalez, I think that if SD does trade him it will be to some other team. I am extremely unethusiastic about either Beltre or JJHardy. These are not star players, and Beltre is only going to get worse. Hardy could not even stick with the Brewers, but there may be more to that than meets the eye. In any case, he is a huge risk, not worth giving up the talent that would be required. I also really doubt that the Brewers will trade Fielder after the year he's had. A year ago was the time to get him. The pickings actually are very slim. |
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jdb |
#26 | |||
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Great write up DCRi. I agree with everything except Beltre. I think he is worth the risk on a 1-2 year deal and would upgrade our D. If healthy you could count
on some decent power at the plate to go along with his D. I also dont see Agon, Felix or Maurer being moved. Prince scares me. It almost like trading for a
big time DT or OT in football. Will he get fat and lazy once he gets paid. With LF could Drew be more productive with a switch. Its a lot of ground to cover in
right and I would hate to lose his D out there but it could be less wear and tear on him in left. Then of course we would still have to find a corner OF. I
agree also about our 5th spot in the rotation. We need a Vet and I would not be thrilled with us running Bowden or Tazawa out there next April.
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WC Sox Fan |
#27 | |||
Lippa91 wrote: To sum up these responses, I think we need to look more into a third baseman's value than his defensive contribution. Hitting is still important. Kotchman has a .729 OPS this year, and will likely improve slightly with more playing time and another year of experience. Beltre has a .670 OPS and is not going to improve with some "performance enhancement"(check his last year with LA). So Kotchman/Youkilis are about a wash defensively at first, and any improvement Beltre gives the team at 3rd defensively is "mostly" offset by the reduction in offense. So, yeah, a slight upgrade at best. Another thing to remember is that $5 million spent on a mostly superfluous player is 5 mil less that the team has to spend on prospects, stadum improvements, and the following years team. So yes, it is still alot of money, just not when compared to the total payroll. If the Red Sox are going to spend the money, I believe they'd be much better off spending a little more for a Chone Figgins, but I still don't see that as a sound investment. Mike Lowell and David Ortiz are most likely going to be on the Red Sox roster next year in some capacity as is will be difficult to trade them and its very unlikely the Red Sox will release them and eat their contracts. They can't be hidden on the bench either, as those roster spots are needed for reserve infielders and outfielders. So any plausible roster move would have to be made around these players. Hopefully they both bounce back next season, although most of us aren't holding our collective breaths. As far as SS goes: Alex Gonzalez is a very good defensive SS (UZR/150 of 7) who has been a model citizen on the Red Sox and has shown that he can play in Boston. However, JJ Hardy (UZR/150 of 6.9) is jsut as good defensively and offensively has more potential and even in his current miserable season has a higher OPS than Gonzalez (.655 to .624). Jack Wilson is also slightly better offensively (.654 OPS) in a down year and has had back to back phenominal seasons defensively (16.7 and 15.2 UZR/150). These both appear to be sure fire upgrades. However, if these players are too expensive ($/prospects) than the Sox should retain Gonzalez. Keep in mind, Wilson requires no draft pick compensation and Hardy's stock is way down since he was rescently demoted. As far as Wakefield goes, if he is healthy at all, then I would expect the Red Sox to exercise his contract and pencil him in as a 6th/7th starter. Unless he retires due to injury. |
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yankshater213 |
#28 | |||
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The most beneficial and viable option is Mauer. He fills a need and is an elite hitter. But to get him he'd cost a boatload of money, especially as a 26
year old. I'd love to see him here, but obviously the Yankees would be after the guy too, and if we wouldn't outbid them for Texiera, I don't see
why we'd do it now too.
Also, the guy is one of the best hitters, but I personally wonder how long he can continue to hit at this high of a level while playing catcher, especially with his history of knee problems. It's obviously not a problem at this moment, but you gotta wonder how long this guy can continue doing what he does before he needs to be moved to 1B/DH permanently. |
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soxfreak13 |
#29 | |||
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I just wrote a very long winded and thoughtful post on what was going through my mind on this subject, went to post it and forgot to sign in so what I did type
was erased, because I'm tired and quite frankly I'm lazy I'm just going to cut to the chase, I would rather have Mauer, Gonzalez and Hernandez in
that order. night all.
edit: I re-read it and it sounds like I want all three. Just to clear that up, I know the Red Sox can only maybe get one of them and that is the order in which I would like for them to try to get these guys.
Last Edited By: soxfreak13 09/30/09 8:26 PM.
Edited 3 times.
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LarsinCharge |
#30 | |||
WC Sox Fan wrote:But is Beltre really that much of a step down offensively from Kotchman? And is Beltre really "not going to improve"? First of all, while Beltre has been 9.2 park-adjusted runs below average this season (he was a +6.6 last season), Kotchman has been 3.4 below (he was -2.8 last season). Add this year's offensive numbers to both men's defensive numbers and factor in positional adjustments, and you have Beltre at 20.3 runs above replacement, Kotchman at 7.9. Second, there are reasons to be optimistic that Beltre will have a better year next season. His overall contact rate, while 4 points below last year's career high of 80.5%, has held steady with his career norms (76% - 78%), and his zone contact rate is right there as well (a career low in contact rate outside the zone has led to his lower overall contact rate). His K% is nearly identical to last season's, although his walk% has dropped. In most respects, Beltre is having a year offensively right in line with 2008 and 2007. The glaring difference is in home run totals; Beltre has just 7 this season, after hitting 25, 26, and 25 the three seasons prior. However, this may be an abberation, as his HR/FB% this season sits at an absurdly low 5.0%, after posting rates of 11.9%, 13.3%, and 13.8% the three previous seasons. This is despite a FB% nearly identical to his rates for the last three seasons. Long story short, Beltre has been unlucky this season in terms of hitting home runs, and consistent with recent historical performance in most other offensive categories. Of course, factoring in that Kotchman will cost a lot less than even a discounted Beltre, it may be as you suggest, a slight upgrade. But if Beltre had 20 home runs this season instead of 7, would you feel the same way? |
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back2basix3593 |
#31 | |||
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why is mauer even listed ,the Twins are not going to trade him ,we need to wait for free agency I think we'd all agree he is close to a perfect fit,but as
far as this offseason goes give me Felix Hernandez.Also why is Roy Halladay not on this list ?
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Greek God of Pankakes |
#32 | |||
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What about a trade for Prince Fielder and JJ Hardy? Not that I am advocating this, but something I think could happen. Prince will be too expensive for
Milwaukee soon and JJ would be a gamble (i.e. Mike Lowell at a lower salary [$7.5 mil vs. < $5 mil] and younger).
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DonCaballero |
#33 | |||
TheGoldenGreek33 wrote: I'm not writing Lars off, but his value is down after this season. If they didn't Felix for what we offered them, I doubt they will if we offer again or put in another arm or something like that. I really think they want a top hitting prospect with a pitcher with some good upside. I'd take Westy, Buch and Bowden, or something like that, which Theo won't and shouldn't offer. |
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DCRi |
#34 | |||
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My point about players like Beltre - and it was before the trade deadline with Rios - is that they are not superior players. For the Sox to be able to
continue to compete, with all the replacements they are going to have to make in the next two years, they should not take on average players as starters. They
need to be adding elite players, even if it is just one per year, rather than waste resources, roster positions and playing time on players who cannot help
them win.
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jspearlj1 |
#35 | |||
My point about players like Beltre - and it was before the trade deadline with Rios - is that they are not superior players. For the Sox to be able to continue to compete, with all the replacements they are going to have to make in the next two years, they should not take on average players as starters. They need to be adding elite players, even if it is just one per year, rather than waste resources, roster positions and playing time on players who cannot help them win.While I agree with these points entirely, some of this thread has been heading towards yankee fandom. I'll say this right now... Mauer is not freaking available. They are moving into a new ballpark and he is a god there. There would be riots in minnesota if they dealt him after the season he had when they are entering into a publically funded park. The pads have actually sent many signals that Adrian Gonzalez is not going to be available. He's signed for a long enough time that they think they could rebuild and still have him in the fold while they become good again. The Brewers have sent absolutely no signals that they are ready to tear the team down. Even if they were its going to be a pitching heavy deal and you better believe they'll be looking at Buck as the centerpiece there. The question you have to ask is the difference between Prince + big fat paycheck to extend him + the prospects to get him worth more than Matt Holliday's big fat contract? I don't see that. The same likely goes to Adrian Gonzalez as well. Felix makes a ton of sense if you fully believe he's going to be much more valuable than Clay... I'm not sure if he's gonna be worth a big fat contract + more prospects than just Clay. I'm predicting that the sox don't deal for any of the guys stated here because none of them make clear cut sense. I think they'll kick the tires on some of the afforementioned players but ultimately decide to get Holliday, deal for a solid ss to push Lowrie (and create 3B depth for the team as well) and call it an offsesason. |
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jdb |
#36 | |||
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Here is Edes breakdown of Bay vs Holliday.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-fullcount092909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns He predicts Holliday to the Sox. |
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Nexus |
#37 | |||
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I could see the Yankees trading Jeter before the Twins trade away their 26 year old C who is the best player in the league and grew up 10 miles from their
brand-new-outdoor-revenue-generating-gem opening next year. Guys like Longoria and J.Upton have more trade value because they're under control for the
foreseeable future, but no one in the AL means more to their team than Joe Mauer.
And while it's nice to envision a lineup packed with elite talent, it's even sweeter to watch a Mueller, Cabrera, Bellhorn, Millar infield win a ring. I know we all think this current team can improve in the offseason, but it's getting annoying to see posters suggesting we focus on 5 guys who also happen to be amongst the 15 or so best players in the league - any one of these guys will cost upwards of 150% of their actual value to acquire. Instead, I would like to see us target cash strapped organizations who have young, controlled players approaching free agency soon. Under the radar guys that will not cost as much in terms of prospects. Two impact players that immediately come to mind are Josh Johnson and Ricky Nolasco. |
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jdb |
#38 | |||
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True. I think we can all stop wasting time talking about Mauer but we do know the Twins might be strapped for cash. Just throwing an idea out there. What about Morneau? His salary goes up around 3.5 million next year and is signed thru 2013 at 14 million per. Im not saying he should be a play for us but I wouldnt be shocked if he were put on the block to get some young talent. |
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yankshater213 |
#39 | |||
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I don't see why Matt Holliday isn't in on this discussion. He was murdering the ball in the second half, and if we don't bring back Bay, Holliday
would be more than worth a long look, providing the Yankees don't price us out of his range. I'd love to see the guy smashing some balls off the
monster next year.
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SexyBanana |
#40 | |||
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Mauer is not going anywhere, at least not until the deadline. The Twins are opening up a new park and are looking to really rejuvenate the fan base and team up
there. I would scratch Mourneau from any discussions as well. Bay vs. Holliday is a good discussion and my preference is Holliday. Bay is a great hitter, hits
for power and has improved his on base skills, but his fielding is below average and we all know he's not a guy that's going to hit for a high high
average. Holliday I feel would be a beast in Fenway, however you are going to have to really lay the money out for him.
Pitching and defense win games. Our offense needs work but Papi is not going anywhere. The only guys you are going to subtract are possibly Lowell, Bay and Gonzo. You still have a base of Ellsbury, Pedoria, VMart, Ortiz, Youk, Drew. That is not bad at all. You fill in your pieces around them correctly and I feel you are set. Our pitching is going to be Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Dice K. You have four solid starters. I do not believe Wake will be able to put in a full year and it would be the best move for this team to go and get another ace with Beckett hitting the market after next season. King Felix is going to take a King's Ransom. Roy Halladay is your guy you want to be going after. Jays have some solid pieces but aren't realistically going anywhere anytime soon. If Riccardi is still around he is almost going to have to trade Halladay, and if he is not around, you can bet his successor is going to want to trade Halladay. Halladay, Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Dice K. If you bring back Wake he is depth and you have enough guys to fill holes in the minors when they arise. Bullpen remains pretty much intact. Our bench you just try to find the best pieces, I do not believe Varitek is your best bet at backup catcher but I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen. I'm advocating a signing of Holliday and to trade for Halladay. Get it done and you will not be disappointed. |
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