Greek to say he's not the number 1 prospect is valid, but with such difinitiveness and dismissing other people's view that he is should be beneath someone of your intelligence... Prospect rankings are opinions and it's fair for someone to argue that Kelly is the number 1 prospect in this organization, no? An intelligent argument can certainly be made he is. It's all about how you rate your prospects. As far as i know, there isn't a set uniform way to do so in any rule book.
Should Kelly start 2010 in AA?
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TokenWilliams |
#41 | |||
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FenwayJack has 100 posts under his belt... that more than qualifies him to tell people where their arguments should go...
Greek to say he's not the number 1 prospect is valid, but with such difinitiveness and dismissing other people's view that he is should be beneath someone of your intelligence... Prospect rankings are opinions and it's fair for someone to argue that Kelly is the number 1 prospect in this organization, no? An intelligent argument can certainly be made he is. It's all about how you rate your prospects. As far as i know, there isn't a set uniform way to do so in any rule book. |
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TheGoldenGreek33 |
#42 | |||
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There isn't. I'm not about to give my laundry list of reasons why Kelly isn't the clear cut #1 prospect (for the billionth time), because a lot of
posters on this board don't think so either and there's plenty of reasons why he shouldn't be as there is why he should be. This thread is about
discussing where he should start in 2010. I'd be happy to talk about his potential in the meta forum if somebody wants else to. If not, I'm just going
to bite my tongue.
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templeUsox |
#43 | |||
brox13 wrote:Because the Tappan Zee is for p******. |
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drivfan08 |
#44 | |||
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If weather is a concern for the start of Kelly's season, why isn't is a concern for other pitchers? If we are worried about cold weather effects
shouldn't it be a worry for all? Depending on the arrangement made next year for what position(s) Casey will play and after that, depending on his ST
performance, Casey will be placed. Without concern for the weather.
My thoughts (for pitching only) are that the FO will take the best road for success; I think that would be to start in A+ and then move to AA in a time frame that keeps Casey hot-to-trot for pitching. As far as ranking, I would have Kelly behind my boy Josh - go Bubba. Iglesias (from Adam Foster): # Just saw Iglesias miss a grounder for the first time ever. A two-headed albino alligator was conceived simultaneously.
Last Edited By: drivfan08 08/20/09 1:47 PM.
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GuapoGuapo |
#45 | |||
The weather issue has been put to bed, but really guapo?I may have a slight northern Maine bias....
"I just really enjoy reading, man. It's totally a good way to stay centered." - Lars
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jr russo |
#46 | |||
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I read somewhere there picutres only throw 30 or 50 more innings a year. For example, 1st year 120 ,2nd year 150, 3rd 180,etc.
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Mhueg |
#47 | |||
jr russo wrote:This is true in almost all minor league development systems for all pitchers. ie, Joba Rules, David Price, Porcello, etc. |
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tdrowe |
#48 | |||
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http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/04/the_verducci_effect_and_why_it.html
EDIT: If this were a poll, I would vote YES, Kelly should start 2010 in AA. I also am among those who don't consider him our top prospect.
Last Edited By: tdrowe 08/20/09 3:41 PM.
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TheGoldenGreek33 |
#49 | |||
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Number one on the Verducci List:
Jon Lester, 237 in 2008, 153.2 career high, difference of +83.1. Lester in 2009? Well, he's only been worth a five win pitcher (3rd in AL w/3.08 FIP). |
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bishop |
#50 | |||
TheGoldenGreek33 wrote:Also on list of 10 - Lincecum, Billingsley, Kershaw, Jurrjens. Hamels and Danks regressed some, and Eveland got injured, but this year at least I'm not sure it proved any more predictive than drawing 10 <25 pitchers out of a hat. |
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ancientsoxfogey |
#51 | |||
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I've been commenting about not pushing Kelly to AA because there's no reason to, since innings limitations are going to hold him back anyway. But with
the bringing up of the Verducci list and how Lester among others has seemingly overcome the concerns this year, maybe it's time to address this a little.
The innings progression concept (no more than 30 or so innings above the previous year for pitchers under 25) seems to be developing into a pretty standard MO among a large proportion of major league organizations, and the Sox seem to be one that keeps it in mind. But let's face it: throughout major league history there have been many pitchers who have ramped up their workload very rapidly in professional baseball and come through it fine, thank you. After all, you've got to start pretty young, and pitch pretty intensively when you are young, to get to the 300 win mark, for example. The question is, who among the pitchers coming up can handle rapid increases in workload, and who can't? The greatest temptation, of course, is to push the workload for the very best pitchers, because their results seem to demand it (does anyone think that if Strasburg starts in the majors next year and is anything like the pitcher people think he will be, that the Nationals will artificially curtail his workload to protect him?) But I guess my point is that while the best pitchers and the pitchers who can withstand rapid innings increases may overlap some, they don't overlap entirely. Which brings us to Kelly. If he starts in AA in 2010 or starts in Salem and is in AA sometime in May, by the end of 2010 he may be knocking on the door of the majors talent-wise. But is he the type of pitcher for whom it would be OK to push the envelope on innings progression? It looks as if the Sox may have had it figured out OK with Lester, but then, Lester is a horse and he was going into his age 24 season when the big increase occurred. It would be interesting to know how the Sox organization sees Kelly vis a vis innings progression. The two-way player business is, of course, a complication to all this that has been discussed at length, and there's no point to readdressing it here. If Kelly is going to be pushed beyond standard innings progression, that probably means that the two-way experiment will have come to an end. |
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bishop |
#52 | |||
ancientsoxfogey wrote:From Verducci's article - "When I talked with Boston pitching coach John Farrell this spring about the Year-After Effect on Lester, for instance, Farrell insisted that he has no worries whatsoever about the left-hander. Farrell said Lester is bigger, stronger and throwing harder than he did a year ago. "His progression has been everything you look for," Farrell said." I suspect it comes down to the strength testing the Red Sox do more than any broad innings-based rule of thumb - they shut down Buchholz when they were in contention before. |
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Arquimedez Bozo |
#53 | |||
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OK, let's reset this thread.
TOPIC: Should Casey Kelly start in Portland, or Salem? Issues: Weather - I think we've put this to bed. Hasn't been an issue before, shouldn't be now. Is he ready? - This is where the discussion lies. Tangents: Kelly's ranking - Bring it to the Meta Forum Verducci Effect - Again, not sure it applies here. Bring it elsewhere. How best to drive from Salem, VA to Portland, ME - I prefer steam locomotive. |
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Quintanariffic |
#54 | |||
templeUsox wrote:And the Cross Bronx Expressway is for idiots. Any time of day, it's 90 minutes o your life you'll never get back.
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Final line for Bard: 3IP, 3H, 6ER, 3/1 K/BB, 1HRA, 3HB, 4WP, 5SBA, 1 groin - amfox1 |
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SoxSail |
#55 | |||
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Can we insert an actual poll about this? I've always felt there should be more polls here.
The innings limit isn't really that big a deal unless there's an injury. If he gets to 130 next year, then he can have 165 the following year. With a little AAA time and a little bullpen action, that's no problem. Lastly, I'd love to here Rowe and Greek's takes on who is above Kelly (in new Meta thread of course.) I'd also like to hear why, but I think I already know Greek's answer. Thanks Rowe, but I meant into this thread. It's not a big deal, I just think it would be more fun to include a poll in a thread with such a simple premise/question. And that goes for future threads as well. I could start one now, but then it wouldn't be linked to the discussion etc. You get my drift I'm sure. (Plus, who checks that thread more than like once a month?)
Last Edited By: SoxSail 08/21/09 1:13 AM.
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tdrowe |
#56 | |||
SoxSail wrote: Have at it. As far as who I have above Kelly, at the risk of getting run over by a number of posters, I have Tazawa-Reddick-Anderson-Bowden above Kelly right now. That said, I don't think his ceiling is a middle-of-the-rotation guy as Pat suggests (or at least thinks is likely to happen), but I definitely would like to to see more than a year from him (especially getting challenged at AA to start the year) before I move him up further. He's pretty close to both Tazawa and Bowden, but the fact that they are near locks swings the pendulum in their favor. I'm impressed at the advanced offerings he has, but I would like to see an uptick in velocity as he increased his workload and improvement on the changeup or another yet-to-be-developed pitch before I think he has #1/#2 stuff. In regards to his innings increase, I think we can be certain that the Sox will try to limit them by something close to the 30IP rule if history is any indication. Even if they increase it by more than that, I am fairly certain the Red Sox think his mechanics are technically sound and will limit the risk of arm injury as his IP increase. As far as evaluating Kelly the pitcher next year, I would hope the Sox allow him to go deeper into games if he is pitching well and keeping the pitch counts down. However, they may not do this often at the beginning of the year for obvious stamina reasons, but also because they want to give him as little time playing "hit the ball" at the end of the season as possible. Regardless of whether or not Kelly makes a full-time transition to pitching this offseason, I think the Sox should start him in AA as both a reward and challenge for Kelly. His professionalism regarding being easy to deal with (as far as we have heard) sticking with the Red Sox plans for him on the mound bode well for his ability to deal with adversity. I think his makeup is well-suited for the challenges Portland would present.
Last Edited By: tdrowe 08/21/09 1:25 AM.
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templeUsox |
#57 | |||
Quintanariffic wrote:You're nuts. The CBE makes life worth living. |
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